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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Actually, I was also curious about Beav's differentiating between logic and critical thinking. Apparently, there is a difference. |
What's the difference? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it should be a core requirement in HS and Uni. We often assume the ability to analyze is inherent. It isn't. The ability differs greatly, but it doesn't suffer from being taught.
As with HS and Uni now, make a minimum amount mandatory, with advanced classes as electives.
This is a vitally needed change. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| luvnpeas wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Actually, I was also curious about Beav's differentiating between logic and critical thinking. Apparently, there is a difference. |
What's the difference? |
Logic is sort of like math. You can argue A+B=C three different ways and all can be correct, internally. It depends on the premise.
If A = 1, B = 2, C = 3, then A+B=C is correct. If another person is going with the premise A = 0, B = 2, C = 3, then A+B=C is incorrect.
For purposes of this board:
1. comprehensible input + practice = acquisition
2. grammar knowledge + practice = acquisition
can both be correct, but probably both are not equally likely to result in C, acquisition. Both may be logical based on the limited instances of someone succeeding with 2, and both may be illogical based on the common occurrance of both being unsuccessful. Critical thinking is what gives logic relevance.
Simpler:
A space rock hits your house: God is angry with me.
A space rock hits your house: Darned unlucky, I am.
Which you believe is accurate depends on you premise. God is all and makes everything happen for a reason, or this piece of space rock just happened to hit my house due to a very long sequence of events beginning, most likely, billions of years ago. In the end, random chance that is mathematicaly mapable (in theory.)
Here, my premise is that I know what I'm talking about. That may be a fallacy.
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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I make middle and high school philosophy more of an urgency. It's much more important that kids know stuff like Plato, Aristotle, Hume, Kant, Descartes than it is they know much of the emprical sciences taught at that level and certainly mathematics. Beyond arithmetic, decimals/fractions/percentages, mathematics is useless and dreadfully uninteresting.
Judging by some of the instances of crap English observable in today's graduates, perhaps encouraging a better command of the native language is more of an urgency than mandatory undergraduate logic. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Beyond arithmetic, decimals/fractions/percentages, mathematics is useless and dreadfully uninteresting.
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| Someone with a double major in mathematics wrote: |
 No no no! You're so wrong! Maths is very exciting! |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
I make middle and high school philosophy more of an urgency. It's much more important that kids know stuff like Plato, Aristotle, Hume, Kant, Descartes than it is they know much of the emprical sciences taught at that level and certainly mathematics. Beyond arithmetic, decimals/fractions/percentages, mathematics is useless and dreadfully uninteresting.
Judging by some of the instances of crap English observable in today's graduates, perhaps encouraging a better command of the native language is more of an urgency than mandatory undergraduate logic. |
You have so very clearly made your point.
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Definitely. The extraordinary lack of critical thinking and muddle headed logic displayed on this forum alone persuades me of that. |
You are a prime example of that, how ironic.
Yes, I think both logic and critical thinking should be mandatory at both high school and university. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Logic as a core subject? It's a no-brainer.
Hmmmm ... leads one to wonder WHY isn't it now?
Maybe someone doesn't want too many people thinking all that critically about their world ( both inner & outer ) & its works 
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Definitely. The extraordinary lack of critical thinking and muddle headed logic displayed on this forum alone persuades me of that. |
You are a prime example of that, how ironic.
Yes, I think both logic and critical thinking should be mandatory at both high school and university. |
Now, there's perfect irony! |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Beyond arithmetic, decimals/fractions/percentages, mathematics is useless and dreadfully uninteresting.
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I don't know about your university, but in my university to get your BA in a social science you need to take statistics, which means you need some level of algebra.
I don't know about your high school, but when I went to high school there were three tracks:
Math for university
Math for community college
Math for those going straight to the factory
Yes, not everyone who takes math will use the tricky stuff. However we still have to educate the large swaths of the population to give them the option to pursue science, engineering, or computer science at the university level. |
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cerulean808
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: |
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EFLtrainer
| Quote: |
Simpler:
A space rock hits your house: God is angry with me.
A space rock hits your house: Darned unlucky, I am.
Which you believe is accurate depends on you premise. God is all and makes everything happen for a reason, or this piece of space rock just happened to hit my house due to a very long sequence of events beginning, most likely, billions of years ago. In the end, random chance that is mathematicaly mapable (in theory.) |
Even simpler:
1 Socrates is a man. All men are mortal. Therefore Socrates is mortal.
2 Socrates is a man. All men are immortal. Therefore Socrates is immortal.
Respectively one argument is valid the other sound.
So an argument can be logical without being true. A friend who'd read Hitler's Mein Kampf, said that though the guy was bonkers there was an appealing logic in his rantings. Then again maybe it was just Hitler's rhetorical talent that was making an impression.
I did a logic paper, it was interesting. Looked at a few systems of formal logic. Mainly involved dry exercisies where the premises and conclusion were given and we had to demonstrate their truth value. Think it could have been more edifying to have been taught to study controversial political issues, identify the premises and conclusions in the arguments of players and analyse those.
Nowhere Man
| Quote: |
As such, if you want to study painting, then fine. Maybe logic isn't really necessary.
However, if you want to study just about anything that doesn't fall under the term "art", logic appears, at least to me, to be a fundamental, if not THE fundamental. |
I'd make philosophy mandatory - logic, art, ethics, language, epistemology, politics, economics, science, history, metaphysics. By the very nature of what it is ( good ) philosophy makes you think and question. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| cerulean808 wrote: |
I did a logic paper, it was interesting. |
No. It wasn't. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| luvnpeas wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Actually, I was also curious about Beav's differentiating between logic and critical thinking. Apparently, there is a difference. |
What's the difference? |
1. comprehensible input + practice = acquisition
2. grammar knowledge + practice = acquisition
can both be correct, but probably both are not equally likely to result in C, acquisition. Both may be logical based on the limited instances of someone succeeding with 2, and both may be illogical based on the common occurrance of both being unsuccessful. Critical thinking is what gives logic relevance. |
Neither of those theories contain much logic. They are theories about how something will work in practice, generally. They need to be tested empirically. Logical thinking is used when you make an argument. |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| This whole thread is like telling a kid with down syndrome to bite his ear. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| luvnpeas wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| luvnpeas wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Actually, I was also curious about Beav's differentiating between logic and critical thinking. Apparently, there is a difference. |
What's the difference? |
1. comprehensible input + practice = acquisition
2. grammar knowledge + practice = acquisition
can both be correct, but probably both are not equally likely to result in C, acquisition. Both may be logical based on the limited instances of someone succeeding with 2, and both may be illogical based on the common occurrance of both being unsuccessful. Critical thinking is what gives logic relevance. |
Neither of those theories contain much logic. They are theories about how something will work in practice, generally. They need to be tested empirically. Logical thinking is used when you make an argument. |
They're plenty logical.
Logic can only work with information that is known (and/or accepted) and that's its major weakness. |
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