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the saint
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Location: not there yet...
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 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: |
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luvnpeas ... with a trigger happy attitude like that it's a wonder you managed in laid back India... chiiiiiillllllll out man... you know you don't have to police these forums for us 
well FWIW I did two six month stints in India. Both were spates of voluntary work interspersed with mad bouts of travelling to satiate my curiosity for this amazing country. Back when I did it, you could only get a 6 month visa anyway. You could easily spend 6 months in India travelling without getting bored...or typhoid for that matter. I'd recommend doing something voluntary though cos it gives you some stability and shows you a part of community life that you'd miss if you just travel around the whole time. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: |
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The assessment I linked to was provided by the Australian Government, dipstick (aka 'luvnpeas'.) If you have a problem with any of the travel advice they've issued, (& it covered the whole range, not just terrorism), I suggest you contact them here:
http://www.dfat.gov.au/feedback.html
And you'd better contact Wikipedia while you're at it. They, too, are providing factual travel information!
This is what I cited:
Brahmaputra Mail train bombing - 1997
Kurnool train crash - 2002
Rafiganj rail disaster, 130 dead - 10th Sept 2002
Godhra Train Burning - 27th Feb 2002
Jaunpur train bombing - 2005
Bombay Suburb Train Blasts 200 dead - 7/11/2006
West India - 68 dead on way home to Pakistan 20th Feb 2007
As you appear incapable of reading past the 1st line or recognising a general pattern or trend, I'll even sort it in reverse chronological date for you:
West India - 68 dead on way home to Pakistan 20th Feb 2007
Bombay Suburb Train Blasts, 200 dead - 7/11/2006
Jaunpur train bombing, 13 dead - 28th July 2005
Jaunpur train crash, 12 dead - 13th May 2005
Kurnool train crash, 20 dead - 21st Dec 2002
Rafiganj rail disaster, 130 dead - 10 Sept 2002
Godhra Train Burning, 58 dead - 27th Feb 2002
Brahmaputra Mail train bombing - 1997
With the exception of the 1997 incident, all of the above have occurred AFTER your visit in 2001.
| Quote: |
| I won�t bother googling 15-year-old train accidents as Chris did. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 1997 10 years ago, not 15?
| Quote: |
| The more general topic is safety from crime |
Okay, here's what the Australian Govt website has got to say on crime in India:
''Crime: Hikers have been attacked or have disappeared in the Kulu/Manali district in Himachal Pradesh, particularly on more remote trekking routes. Trekkers can register their presence with the local police.
Petty theft is common in crowded areas such as markets, airports and bus and railway stations.
Thieves on motorcycles commonly snatch shoulder bags and expensive jewellery, especially gold chains.
Travellers have been robbed and assaulted after consuming 'spiked' drinks or food.
There have been incidents of robbery or assault on passengers in taxis travelling to from Mumbai and Delhi airports in the early hours of the morning. Always use prepaid taxi services and avoid boarding taxis already carrying passengers.
Touts and taxi and rickshaw drivers use aggressive tactics to persuade you to accept offers of tickets, tours and accommodation. Tourists riding in taxis and rickshaws have been robbed and assaulted at their destination, particularly in Kashmir and Rajasthan.
Some travellers have been intimidated or tricked into purchasing items which are grossly overvalued after accepting unsolicited approaches for provision of various services, particularly for assistance with shopping for jewellery, gems and carpets. You can purchase authentic items at government jewellery and carpet outlets in India.
Women travellers, especially when travelling alone, often get unwanted attention and have been sexually harassed and assaulted. Women should avoid walking alone at night in deserted areas, including city streets, village lanes and beaches.
In some parts of India there are sensitivities about religious missionary activity. In January 1999, an Australian missionary and his two young sons were murdered in the eastern state of Orissa.
There are persistent allegations and media reports of sexual misconduct made against certain prominent cults and their leaders in India.
Local Travel
Some areas along the India-Pakistan border are heavily mined.
Driving in India is dangerous due to poorly maintained and congested roads and accidents frequently occur. Roads are often shared with pedestrians, carts, cattle and other livestock and are particularly dangerous at night due to insufficient or non-existent street lighting. Local driving practices are often undisciplined and aggressive with poorly maintained vehicles. If a driver hits a pedestrian or cow, the occupants of the car are at risk of being attacked or becoming victims of extortion.
Motorcycle riders are required by law to wear helmets. If you intend to ride a motorcycle, you should check that your travel insurance policy covers injuries sustained in motorcycle accidents.
An international driving license and an Australian driving license in required to legally operate a vehicle or motorcycle in India and to validate any applicable insurance. An Australian licence alone is not sufficient, despite advice to the contrary provided by some car and motorcycle rental companies.
Bus services are often overcrowded and drivers may lack adequate training.
You are required by law to carry your passport at all times.
You need permission from the Indian authorities to visit certain parts of the country, particularly in the northeast. Permits are required for Mizoram, Manipur, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, parts of Kulu District and Spiti District of Himachal Pradesh, border areas of Jammu and Kashmir, some areas of Uttaranchal, parts of Rajasthan adjacent to the international border, the Tibetan settlements between Hunsar and Madikeri in Karnataka, Lakshwadeep and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. There are severe penalties for entering a restricted area without prior permission. A minimum of four weeks' notice is required for processing applications for permits. You should seek advice from the nearest High Commission or Consulate of India or the Ministry of Home Affairs in New Delhi.
Fog affects northern India, usually during the December to January period. This fog may affect air and rail travel causing delays and cancellations.
There are concerns about the safety and maintenance standards of helicopters operating in the north eastern states.
Piracy occurs in the coastal areas of India. See our travel advice on Shipping and Ports for further information. The International Maritime Bureau issues weekly piracy reports on its website.''
"Money and Valuables - Before you go, organise a variety of ways of accessing your money overseas, such as credit cards, travellers' cheques and cash. Check with your bank whether your ATM card will work overseas.
Make two photocopies of valuables such as your passport, tickets, visas and travellers' cheques. Keep one copy with you in a separate place to the original and leave another copy with someone at home.
While travelling, don't carry too much cash and remember that expensive watches, jewellery and cameras may be tempting targets for thieves.
As a sensible precaution against luggage tampering, including theft, lock your luggage. Information on luggage safety is available from The Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority."
If you dont like it, complain to the Australian Government & don't attack the messenger, by making personal attacks on me. Ignoring sound advice is never a good idea.
Oh & 'Londan' is spelt as 'London' btw.
Last edited by chris_J2 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mnhnhyouh
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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The old photocopy advice is not good for passports and other stuff like insurance numbers, stolen credit card numbers and emergency contact details. Better to make good hi-res scans, and email them to an account that you will not access except for emergencies. This way you will have it no matter what happens to your gear.
Not putting it in your primary account helps avoid keystroke loggers in PC bangs (or the Indian version of) getting to your information.
h |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: India Safety |
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| Sounds like a great idea, 'mnhnhyouh'. Just make sure that the pc bar can compress the size of the scanned image. I had problems in Thailand just recently, as the scan size was too large. I eventually figured out a way to compress the image to 200 kb (it was originally 1000 kb!) so I could send it in an email. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: |
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luvnpeas wrote:
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| epeating your citation doesn't make it more authoritative. The evidence is that your "authority" is misinformed: The US has a higher murder rate, higher robbery rate, higher assault rate, higher overall crime rate than India--by a large margin. Facts. |
Yes, what a government publishes cannot be taken as fact. What one country says about another has a lot to do with politics. Read the travel advice given by the US government. Some of what they say is not very accurate. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| The assessment I linked to was provided by the Australian Government, dipstick (aka 'luvnpeas'.) |
Good job taking the high road. Repeating your source doesn't make it more authoritative. Your authority appears ignorant of the facts.
| Quote: |
West India - 68 dead on way home to Pakistan 20th Feb 2007
Bombay Suburb Train Blasts, 200 dead - 7/11/2006
Jaunpur train bombing, 13 dead - 28th July 2005
Jaunpur train crash, 12 dead - 13th May 2005
Kurnool train crash, 20 dead - 21st Dec 2002
Rafiganj rail disaster, 130 dead - 10 Sept 2002
Godhra Train Burning, 58 dead - 27th Feb 2002
Brahmaputra Mail train bombing - 1997 |
The 1996 (not '97) event killed 35 people. That works out to roughly 50 deaths a year due to train terrorism. India has a population of one billion.
Odds of being killed in train terrorism in India (annual): 1 in 20 million
Odds of being killed by lightning in the US (annual): 1 in 4 million
http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm
You are almost 5 times more likely to die by lightning-strike than by train-terrorism in India.
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| Quote: |
| The more general topic is safety from crime |
Okay, here's what the Australian Govt website has got to say on crime in India:
''Crime: Hikers have been attacked or have disappeared |
Equally true of Canada. Equally true of the US. Equally true of the Australia. Equally true of all countries with a large population and a lot of backpacking.
You are really unclear on the concept.... It's the rate that gives the indication of risk. India has lower a lower rate of assault, lower rate of murder, lower rate of robbery, lower rate of total crime than the US. Facts.
More math, less worship of the Australian government, please. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: Safety in India |
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Fine, luvnpeas. If you want to believe India is all love, peace & mung beans, don't forget your rose coloured glasses, on your next trip there. Just don't come b!tching to me, if anything goes wrong, because you ignored sound travel advice. The bodies & wreckage were still being removed on 1st Janury 1997, after the Brahmaputra Mail train bombing on 30 December 1996.
And my source said "SOME are listed below", so your analysis is seriously flawed. eg, there are an additional 285 deaths in the Gaisal train disaster in 1999. I wonder if you would still be so flippant with statistics, if one of your own relatives were among the casualties? I still stress that traffic accidents are any travellers biggest worry. India had about 60,000 deaths in 1995 alone. (Nationmaster.com). That's 600,000 deaths over a 10 year period, & that estimate is conservative when Indias' gdp & number of vehicles have both increased since then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauhati_rail_disaster |
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mnhnhyouh
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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I have been to India a couple of times. These are my impressions when comparing it to the limited number of places I have been. I felt safer in New Zealand and Korea, but less safe in Thailand and Cambodia.
h |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| And my source said "SOME are listed below", so your analysis is seriously flawed. eg, there are an additional 285 deaths in the Gaisal train disaster in 1999. |
Having misrepresented India, you now misrepresent your own sources. Your original source didn't list Gaisal because it was a list of terrorism, and Gaisal was an accident. Twenty-four hours ago, you declared "the" topic here to be terrorism.
But, let's overlook your, um �fudging,� and add another 285 deaths to our total. Now the combined rate of death by train terrorism and accident is roughly one-third the rate of being struck dead by lightning.
If you do some more googling maybe you can triple your figures, and make the rate of death by train equal to the rate of death by lightning. If you also bring a lightning-rod every time you go near a golf course, your fears will be consistent.
| Quote: |
| I still stress that traffic accidents are any travelers biggest worry. |
The question under discussion is travel on trains. Or, according to you, terrorism on trains. But, you are, um, �fudging� again. You have never stressed that traffic accidents are the biggest worry. It has not been the main topic of any of your posts; you have alluded to it exactly twice in all your posts here.
Good news: further posts from you will be ignored. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Good news: further posts from you will be ignored. |
Hallelujah! You've done nothing other than make personal attacks on me & other contributors to this thread, & deliberately tried to provoke arguments, for the past week. Better pack 2-3 pairs of those rose-coloured glasses, in the off chance that your first pair are melted through a random lightning strike! (Apologies to anyone who spills their coffee after reading that)  .
My source on terrorism in India, was a direct cut & paste from 'wikipedia', precipitated by current events, & as I suggested before, if you don't like the information they provided, you're welcome to contact them, & state an alternate view. Wikipedia will amend articles, if a sound & convincing enough case is presented. Judging from the disconnected drivel you've posted, that will not be the case.
Tuesday Feb 20, 2007 8:55 pm:
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| Traffic accidents kill far more people statistically, than any other single cause, including terrorism. |
. There! I've stressed it. Happy? |
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the saint
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Location: not there yet...
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| luvnpeas wrote: |
Good news: further posts from you will be ignored. |
amen to that... I don't know why you bother to waste your time trying to sort out the world's woes... glad to see you've realised the futility of your efforts. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
The assessment I linked to was provided by the Australian Government, dipstick (aka 'luvnpeas'.) If you have a problem with any of the travel advice they've issued, (& it covered the whole range, not just terrorism), I suggest you contact them here:
http://www.dfat.gov.au/feedback.html
And you'd better contact Wikipedia while you're at it. They, too, are providing factual travel information!
This is what I cited:
Brahmaputra Mail train bombing - 1997
Kurnool train crash - 2002
Rafiganj rail disaster, 130 dead - 10th Sept 2002
Godhra Train Burning - 27th Feb 2002
Jaunpur train bombing - 2005
Bombay Suburb Train Blasts 200 dead - 7/11/2006
West India - 68 dead on way home to Pakistan 20th Feb 2007
As you appear incapable of reading past the 1st line or recognising a general pattern or trend, I'll even sort it in reverse chronological date for you:
West India - 68 dead on way home to Pakistan 20th Feb 2007
Bombay Suburb Train Blasts, 200 dead - 7/11/2006
Jaunpur train bombing, 13 dead - 28th July 2005
Jaunpur train crash, 12 dead - 13th May 2005
Kurnool train crash, 20 dead - 21st Dec 2002
Rafiganj rail disaster, 130 dead - 10 Sept 2002
Godhra Train Burning, 58 dead - 27th Feb 2002
Brahmaputra Mail train bombing - 1997
With the exception of the 1997 incident, all of the above have occurred AFTER your visit in 2001.
| Quote: |
| I won�t bother googling 15-year-old train accidents as Chris did. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 1997 10 years ago, not 15?
| Quote: |
| The more general topic is safety from crime |
Okay, here's what the Australian Govt website has got to say on crime in India:
''Crime: Hikers have been attacked or have disappeared in the Kulu/Manali district in Himachal Pradesh, particularly on more remote trekking routes. Trekkers can register their presence with the local police.
Petty theft is common in crowded areas such as markets, airports and bus and railway stations.
Thieves on motorcycles commonly snatch shoulder bags and expensive jewellery, especially gold chains.
Travellers have been robbed and assaulted after consuming 'spiked' drinks or food.
There have been incidents of robbery or assault on passengers in taxis travelling to from Mumbai and Delhi airports in the early hours of the morning. Always use prepaid taxi services and avoid boarding taxis already carrying passengers.
Touts and taxi and rickshaw drivers use aggressive tactics to persuade you to accept offers of tickets, tours and accommodation. Tourists riding in taxis and rickshaws have been robbed and assaulted at their destination, particularly in Kashmir and Rajasthan.
Some travellers have been intimidated or tricked into purchasing items which are grossly overvalued after accepting unsolicited approaches for provision of various services, particularly for assistance with shopping for jewellery, gems and carpets. You can purchase authentic items at government jewellery and carpet outlets in India.
Women travellers, especially when travelling alone, often get unwanted attention and have been sexually harassed and assaulted. Women should avoid walking alone at night in deserted areas, including city streets, village lanes and beaches.
In some parts of India there are sensitivities about religious missionary activity. In January 1999, an Australian missionary and his two young sons were murdered in the eastern state of Orissa.
There are persistent allegations and media reports of sexual misconduct made against certain prominent cults and their leaders in India.
Local Travel
Some areas along the India-Pakistan border are heavily mined.
Driving in India is dangerous due to poorly maintained and congested roads and accidents frequently occur. Roads are often shared with pedestrians, carts, cattle and other livestock and are particularly dangerous at night due to insufficient or non-existent street lighting. Local driving practices are often undisciplined and aggressive with poorly maintained vehicles. If a driver hits a pedestrian or cow, the occupants of the car are at risk of being attacked or becoming victims of extortion.
Motorcycle riders are required by law to wear helmets. If you intend to ride a motorcycle, you should check that your travel insurance policy covers injuries sustained in motorcycle accidents.
An international driving license and an Australian driving license in required to legally operate a vehicle or motorcycle in India and to validate any applicable insurance. An Australian licence alone is not sufficient, despite advice to the contrary provided by some car and motorcycle rental companies.
Bus services are often overcrowded and drivers may lack adequate training.
You are required by law to carry your passport at all times.
You need permission from the Indian authorities to visit certain parts of the country, particularly in the northeast. Permits are required for Mizoram, Manipur, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, parts of Kulu District and Spiti District of Himachal Pradesh, border areas of Jammu and Kashmir, some areas of Uttaranchal, parts of Rajasthan adjacent to the international border, the Tibetan settlements between Hunsar and Madikeri in Karnataka, Lakshwadeep and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. There are severe penalties for entering a restricted area without prior permission. A minimum of four weeks' notice is required for processing applications for permits. You should seek advice from the nearest High Commission or Consulate of India or the Ministry of Home Affairs in New Delhi.
Fog affects northern India, usually during the December to January period. This fog may affect air and rail travel causing delays and cancellations.
There are concerns about the safety and maintenance standards of helicopters operating in the north eastern states.
Piracy occurs in the coastal areas of India. See our travel advice on Shipping and Ports for further information. The International Maritime Bureau issues weekly piracy reports on its website.''
"Money and Valuables - Before you go, organise a variety of ways of accessing your money overseas, such as credit cards, travellers' cheques and cash. Check with your bank whether your ATM card will work overseas.
Make two photocopies of valuables such as your passport, tickets, visas and travellers' cheques. Keep one copy with you in a separate place to the original and leave another copy with someone at home.
While travelling, don't carry too much cash and remember that expensive watches, jewellery and cameras may be tempting targets for thieves.
As a sensible precaution against luggage tampering, including theft, lock your luggage. Information on luggage safety is available from The Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority."
If you dont like it, complain to the Australian Government & don't attack the messenger, by making personal attacks on me. Ignoring sound advice is never a good idea.
Oh & 'Londan' is spelt as 'London' btw. |
Chris,
You seem like a typical Australian. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Typical Australian |
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Well, I was born & bred in Brisbane.
Btw, I'm not xenophobic, & have been to India & would like to return. Goa particularly interests me.
Re my comment on reading newspapers & keeping up to date with local events, I was in Kathmandu airport in 2002, when I spotted a newspaper with the headlines "bus held up on Mahendra Highway". Turns out a tourist bus was held up in the middle of the night & all passengers & driver were robbed. I caught the day bus to Janakpur. I've since read that all night busses now travel in convoys, to avoid hijacks. Safety in numbers.
At my QUT graduation ceremony, the comment was made in a speech that there are more Uni graduates from India, than all the other English speaking countries combined. This fact was reinforced by the presence of the young woman on my right, who was Indian. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| the saint wrote: |
| I don't know why you bother to waste your time trying to sort out the world's woes... |
Interestingly, you tend to exhibit the traits you criticize in others.... making personal remarks about making personal remarks, throwing stones at people for throwing stones. Your last few posts here have been admonishments about policing the forum; I just perused another travel thread, and there you were, telling people to "calm down" (and accusing them of things). Why don't you quit trying to sort out the world's woes?
One does suspect that most saints were pretty sanctimonious in real life. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I went to India with my girlfriend (who is Indian) for about 3 months.
Beautiful place with some of the most generous and nicest people on the planet.
There is alot of racism..or is it caste-ism, against Africans (and black people in general)...but not all people are full of hatred there.
Like all countries that are developing, India can be very dangerous. Scams from beggars to policemen I have seen. Food especially can be deadly if not cooked right or stored properly. I would say that is the number one danger.
The sadest thing I had witnessed there on the topic of danger to foreigners was a French dude who stayed at the Salvation Army Hostel in Mumbai with me. He was in tears because he left his travelling bag for a second and when he turned around...all of his money, cloths and ID was GONE.
He just arrived for a few months-long travel by himself across India. Now he had to go home minus a few thousand dollars.
Sad. |
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