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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: Chavez's Fraud |
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Ignoring Chavez's Plan
Hugo Chavez may have lost both the recall referendum in 2004 and the December 2006 presidential election, according to studies conducted by a distinguished multidisciplinary team in Caracas, Venezuela. The team includes the rector of Universidad Simon Bolivar, Frederick Malpica, and a former rector of the National Electoral Council, Alfredo Weil.
Astonishing as it may seem to Americans who believe the contention by Mr. Chavez that he won both elections by a landslide � 58% to 42% in the recall and 61% to 39% in the presidential election � the studies show that since 2003, Mr. Chavez has added 4.4 million favorable names to the voter list and "migrated" 2.6 million unfavorable voters to places where it was difficult or impossible for them to vote.
None of these additions or migrations to the voter-register has been independently audited in Venezuela. Instead, the votes have been electronically counted by Chavez cronies. So when Mr. Chavez announces a landslide, there has been no way to prove otherwise, even though exit polls and other data have consistently shown that half the voters of Venezuela or more oppose Mr. Chavez.
Check out the link. Danny Glover, is your face red!!! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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The article's points fall dead on the mark.
With respect to its conclusion...
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| We believe Mr. Chavez is given a wide berth everywhere because he's got an oil supply second only to Saudi Arabia. He is using America's oil market -- or lack of oil production -- to get Americans to ignore what he's up to. |
I would only add that extreme antiAmericanism and Yanquifobia (traits that not a few Americans themselves share) tie Washington's hands with respect to Chavez. U.S.-Venezuelan relations' importance, per se, pale by comparison to U.S.-Latin American relations as a whole. The White House and State have been well aware of these political difficulties for some time -- which, incidentally, is yet another reason I doubt the coup allegations' veracity. It would risk too much.
In any case, I suspect Belafonte, Glover, Sheehan, and all the other Chavez groupies and apologists will continue to heap lavish praise onto him until he takes Venezuela over the cliff and into the abyss. And then they will blame you-know-who for what he did... |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Wheres big bird? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| Wheres big bird? |
Yes. I miss her, too. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, he's going to repeat all the mistakes of old. But so what? |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| Wheres big bird? |
Yes. I miss her, too. |
I wonder if she will have the guts to write anything in this thread. Chavez is afterall her hero. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher wrote:
jinju wrote:
Wheres big bird?
Yes. I miss her, too.
I wonder if she will have the guts to write anything in this thread. Chavez is afterall her hero. |
I'm sure she is having some creative downtime. But I would voice in her absence that 1) it is tiring to continually hear all this garble about her being the despicable voice of (insert desired foreign entity). That she argues their side on many salient points does not make her a sympathizer, just someone who finds merits where merits may be. And she is not consummed with looking at things through whatever coloured glasses. But in no way have I ever thought she is excusing these groups indiscretions, abuses, travesties, horrid actions. Not the case. So stop with the labeling I would ask.
About Chavez. The author of this, has made his case in the past. Along with the loud scream of the Venezuelan opposition post referendum of "Fraud". He might know more than he is letting on but he has not shown any proof. At the time, I read all the Carter center's reports and statistics, evaluations. www.cartercenter.org These also second to those of the main oversight organization), the OAS. Both found no reasons to declare anything but a free and fair election. In fact, polls were kept open to allow all to vote and the turnout was unbelievable.
Most important of all, Chavez could be commended when in meetings prior to the polls opening, he gave 100% access to all observers to all places, polls, meetings, gathering places.
Very suspicious that Mr. Schoen quotes no reference to these "studies" or didn't at the time, voice these same allegations.
As to Chavez's own policies, attitude and performance, I am against most of what he does. And believe the situation dangerous in the long term once the population sees his real colours. In the meantime, we should allow Venezuela to pursue self-determination. For better or good. But still crying out about the abuses. I don't believe election fraud to have been one of them.
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| But so what? |
He is leading not only Venezuela over the abyss, but he is also actively seeking to enlist as many Latin American and Caribbean leaders as he can get to follow his lead -- interfering in their own political processes as he pleases and in a way that does not lack in extremist opposition to "the Evil Empire" who he would like nothing more than to hurl down into the abyss too. That is "what."
At the end of the day, Chavez is nothing more than a destructive force in world affairs. He offers nothing. He is a child tyrant who dramatically seizes people's attention with his temper tantrums, which occur quite frequently. No more no less.
By the way, this callousness almost ranks as noteworthy as your smug "learn-to-take-better-care-of-your-poor" preaching in Katrina's aftermath. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| He is leading not only Venezuela over the abyss, but he is also actively seeking to enlist as many Latin American and Caribbean leaders as he can get to follow his lead -- interfering in their own political processes as he pleases and in a way that does not lack in extremist opposition to "the Evil Empire" who he would like nothing more than to hurl down into the abyss too. That is "what." |
Wow a financially powerful nation is interfering in the political process of its neighbors? Who ever heard of such a thing. Terrible.
| Gopher wrote: |
| By the way, this callousness almost ranks as noteworthy as your smug "learn-to-take-better-care-of-your-poor" preaching in Katrina's aftermath. |
Oh boo hoo. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Wow a financially-powerful nation is interfering in the political process of its neighbors? Who ever heard of such a thing. Terrible...Oh boo-hoo. |
Good stuff, Mindmetoo. But for your condescension, you sound like a Realist.
I am going to quote this and cite it anytime anyone here complains about America's "meddling" in anyone else's affairs on principle.
Happens all the time. What are people so upset a-boot? No biggie, right? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Wow a financially-powerful nation is interfering in the political process of its neighbors? Who ever heard of such a thing. Terrible...Oh boo-hoo. |
Good stuff, Mindmetoo. But for your condescension, you sound like a Realist.
I am going to quote this and cite it anytime anyone here complains about America's "meddling" in anyone else's affairs on principle.
Happens all the time. What are people so upset a-boot? No biggie, right? |
The pot should hardly be calling the kettle black.
I utterly cringe every time Chavez eschews democracy. There's not a nation that depends on high oil that is betting it's going to remain high for the long term. When (if) a new glut comes on, Venezuela is going to be up a creek. But it's their creek and they will have no one to blame but themselves. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Wow a financially-powerful nation is interfering in the political process of its neighbors? Who ever heard of such a thing. Terrible...Oh boo-hoo. |
Good stuff, Mindmetoo. But for your condescension, you sound like a Realist.
I am going to quote this and cite it anytime anyone here complains about America's "meddling" in anyone else's affairs on principle.
Happens all the time. What are people so upset a-boot? No biggie, right? |
The pot should hardly be calling the kettle black.
I utterly cringe every time Chavez eschews democracy. There's not a nation that depends on high oil that is betting it's going to remain high for the long term. When (if) a new glut comes on, Venezuela is going to be up a creek. But it's their creek and they will have no one to blame but themselves. |
Pot and Kettle? Did you read the article? Chavez has succeeded in doing far more to derail democracy in Venezuala than Bush has ever even tried to do.
The whole point is that the elections were fraudulent, so the Venezualans have Chavez and his lackeys to blame. Not to mention all the idiotic foreigners, mostly Americans let us remember, who supported him. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| The pot should hardly be calling the kettle black. |
No me digas.
I have heard it all before, Mindmetoo: no difference between W. Bush and Chavez anymore than there is any difference between Washington and Tehran (or Pyongyang or any other rogue state), right? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Pot and Kettle? Did you read the article? Chavez has succeeded in doing far more to derail democracy in Venezuala than Bush has ever even tried to do.
The whole point is that the elections were fraudulent, so the Venezualans have Chavez and his lackeys to blame. Not to mention all the idiotic foreigners, mostly Americans let us remember, who supported him. |
Please post some hard info. as to how the election/referendum was fraudulent. All I see in this article is an allegation, very weak at that. This specific allegation wasn't even made at the time of the referendum so I am very suspicious as to why the author didn't cry out then. Also, I'd like to see this "study".
Please post some substance before going off with your "opinion". I'll return in kind with the OAS materials not just stating their opinion but also the facts about how many voting stations they monitored, how many recounts they assisted in, how much access was granted etc. etc.....
As I said, I don't think Chavez can be said to be derailing democracy in this regard and as you said, "the elections were fraudulent". If you believe so, you are not following facts but spouting slogans/slander. Just as bad when the other side does it, as when Chavez does it.
His constitution and also decrees, yes . They stink and are derailing democracy. There, you have a point.
DD |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Chavez in the heading, but no big bird..whats its excuse? Where is it? |
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