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Being illegally fined!!
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the eye wrote:
Getting fired DOES release you from your VISA if the employer intends to hire a new teacher. I'm not going into the mechanics of all this again here, but I have it DIRECTLY from the horse's mouth.

Horse's ass maybe. I attended an Immigration informational seminar a few months ago, and this is the opposite of what we were told. If you quit or you resign, you must get a Letter of Release OR go to Immigration with your employer to cancel the visa in person. Nothing short of those 2 things will release you from a visa. All three Immigration officials agreed with this, including the big boss man of Jeollabuk-do Immigration.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young FRANKenstein wrote:
the eye wrote:
Getting fired DOES release you from your VISA if the employer intends to hire a new teacher. I'm not going into the mechanics of all this again here, but I have it DIRECTLY from the horse's mouth.

Horse's ass maybe. I attended an Immigration informational seminar a few months ago, and this is the opposite of what we were told. If you quit or you resign, you must get a Letter of Release OR go to Immigration with your employer to cancel the visa in person. Nothing short of those 2 things will release you from a visa. All three Immigration officials agreed with this, including the big boss man of Jeollabuk-do Immigration.


Aye, once you get fired, your hogwon needs to register the termination with Immi. If they do not, you're taking up one of their "spots" (each school is limited to the number they can sponsor).
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the eye



Joined: 29 Jan 2004

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
Aye, once you get fired, your hogwon needs to register the termination with Immi. If they do not, you're taking up one of their "spots" (each school is limited to the number they can sponsor).


Correct.
It's not about QUITTING.
It's about getting fired. Your visa is cancelled. In addition to needing the VISA slot for the next teacher, the employer is OBLIGATED to cancel it as they are responsible for the teacher that holds it.
The korean woman who does the hiring at my school had it corroborated.

The only thing is, getting fired is recorded on your immi file. They will eventually refuse to give you a new visa if there is a string of firings on your record.

I love having this argument with more and more dolts who think they know what's going on.
Listening to iimmi officials speak publicly, well, you may as well just turn up your ipod.

Rolling Eyes
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wylies99



Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I love having this argument with more and more dolts who think they know what's going on.


Some are just idiots talking out of their butts, while others on here are deliberately trying to give out false information. Watch out for those shady hogwan owners and crooked recruiters who post misinformation on this site. Wink
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the eye wrote:
Listening to iimmi officials speak publicly, well, you may as well just turn up your ipod.

So you're saying the head of Jeolla Immigration is wrong, but you are right. Being that I'm in Jeolla, I'm sure you won't mind if I take his word over yours.
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Hanson



Joined: 20 Oct 2004

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young FRANKenstein wrote:
the eye wrote:
Getting fired DOES release you from your VISA if the employer intends to hire a new teacher. I'm not going into the mechanics of all this again here, but I have it DIRECTLY from the horse's mouth.

Horse's ass maybe. I attended an Immigration informational seminar a few months ago, and this is the opposite of what we were told. If you quit or you resign, you must get a Letter of Release OR go to Immigration with your employer to cancel the visa in person. Nothing short of those 2 things will release you from a visa. All three Immigration officials agreed with this, including the big boss man of Jeollabuk-do Immigration.
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Lonewolph



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Location: Kwangju, Korea

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's look at the logic of the Letter of Release (LOR). Does it make sense that if a teacher has a legitimate reason for terminating their contract early but still needs to be on good terms with their employer in order to obtain an LOR in order to apply for another teaching visa, while a teacher who is fired for incompetence, verbally assaulting a student or coming to school drunk can turn around the next week and get another teaching visa without needing and LOR? Going to immigration and cancelling your work visa is completely separate from needing and LOR to apply for a new work visa. Whether you quit or are fired, you and your employer must both go to immigration and report it, at which time your work visa will be cancelled and you will have 14 days to leave the country. But regardless of which party terminates the contract and for what reason, teachers still MUST obtain an LOR from their former employer in order to apply for a new work visa prior to the expiry of their previous contract. This was confirmed by 5 different immigration offices earlier today.

My condolences on your loss Mickie, and this sticky situation certainly does not help. The majority here may not agree, but the best thing to do at this point is to try to compromise with your boss. It does not seem to me that she is totally bad...she did give you 3 weeks paid holiday to visit your mother when she was ill, and let you return home again for the weekend, even though you did not actually take any leave. I am sure that if you check your contract, you will find that you are only permitted 7 consecutive days with pay in this situation with possibly more without pay at the discretion of your employer. Furthermore, the clause most likely states something like "in the case of death OR illness of an immediate family member", indicating that if you take leave to visit an ill family member, the school is not obligated to give you more time off if that same ill family member passes. I don't mean to sound cold, but if this is what your contract says, then by law, your school is not required to do any more.

I suggest you try to compromise for this reason: you are low on funds and you stand to be terminated if you officially bring the labor board into the situation. Believe it or not, as this is certainly not the way it is back home, reporting an employer to the labor board for illegal or inappropriate actions can be defendable grounds for immediate termination of the reporting teacher. Being reported to the Korean Labor board will tarnish the reputation of the school and thus can be sufficient for the employer to make a case to Korean Immigration for immediate termination of the teacher and their work visa, and difinately no LOR will be granted in order for the teacher to obtain a new work visa. It is sad, but that is the way it works here, much to our chagrin. So, if you are strapped for cash, and if the working conditions at your school are satisfactory in other regards, sitting down amiably with your director and working out a compromise may be the best move. If your contract ends in a couple months, you will at least get your bonus pay and return air ticket, and will be able to apply for another job at another school if you so choose. If your contract still is not due to end for some time, you might want to submit your 30 days notice (unless longer is required by your contract) once you have sufficient funds to return home. If you do it this way and deal with your director with a respectful attitude despite how you feel, your chances of getting an LOR would be much improved.

On a final note, this type of situation can be avoided. I always tell people that when your employer grants you time off or anything else that is not stipulated in your contract, get it in writing right from your director in as much detail as possible, including if and what deductions may be applicable. It may seem heartless, but in this and any other business environment, what is written on paper is the best and often only proof of any agreement.
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the eye



Joined: 29 Jan 2004

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young FRANKenstein wrote:
So you're saying the head of Jeolla Immigration is wrong, but you are right. Being that I'm in Jeolla, I'm sure you won't mind if I take his word over yours.

I'm not saying he is WRONG. I'm saying he didn't talk about getting fired. I'm saying there are things they DON'T tell english teachers at a public forum.

Lonewolph wrote:
Does it make sense that if a teacher has a legitimate reason for terminating their contract early but still needs to be on good terms with their employer in order to obtain an LOR in order to apply for another teaching visa, while a teacher who is fired for incompetence, verbally assaulting a student or coming to school drunk can turn around the next week and get another teaching visa without needing and LOR?

Coming to school drunk, verbally insulting, causing damage are all reportable offences that are noted on your immi file. Of course such offences will inhibit you from getting a new visa. I already went through this. If the employer can prove that you did such things, you would not be able to get another job.

However, there are reasons that you can be fired and not have a record. Frequent illness is an example. Managerial incompetence, ie.finances, is an other. In those cases, you can be fired and still be able to get another job.

You guys can speak to every last drone at the immigration office right up to the borg leader. Sure, they will all tell you about this LOR crap.
Requirements differ from area to area, anyway. I quit a bad job a couple years ago and wasn't asked to sign an LOR at all. All I signed was a confirmation form.
Regarding the peice of paper that you need from immi, to get a new visa...It is NOT AN LOR. It is typically called the 'blue paper'. It is NOT AN LOR. It is a form of permission from immigration to the consulate that processes your new visa. Fact.

If you really want the full story, go to the forum that immi holds for school directors. That's where they talk about the obligations regarding employers handling VISAS. There, they would tell you that employers are legally responsible for all the actions of their E2 holders. They would tell you that if you terminate (read 'fire') an employee, you are obligated to cancel the VISA, thus releasing any responsibiliity you hold for the actions of that teacher. The teacher is given an exit order and must leave within 14days.
The employer must free up your visa slot in order to hire anew teacher.

As I already said, I discussed this with the woman who does the dirty work at our school. She is the one who works with immi and has to abide by their policies. She told me exactly what I've been saying here.
This argument has come up before, many times. Subsequently, other people on this forum, who were foreign teacher managers, also confirmed this.

It is a fine line to walk, but anything that your employer asserts about you and your actions, has to be proven to immi in order for them to put it in your file.
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Lonewolph



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Location: Kwangju, Korea

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the eye wrote:
I quit a bad job a couple years ago and wasn't asked to sign an LOR at all. All I signed was a confirmation form.
Regarding the peice of paper that you need from immi, to get a new visa...It is NOT AN LOR. It is typically called the 'blue paper'. It is NOT AN LOR. It is a form of permission from immigration to the consulate that processes your new visa. Fact.


This is correct. But what was being talked about here is not the "blue paper" which is supplied by Korean Immigration, it is a Letter of Release (LOR) which is simply a piece of paper stating that the teacher in question is released by the school. It must be signed and stamped by the school director. A teacher MUST obtain an LOR from their former employer if they wish to apply for another teaching visa before the previous contract which was terminated early was due to expire.

the eye wrote:
If you really want the full story, go to the forum that immi holds for school directors. That's where they talk about the obligations regarding employers handling VISAS. There, they would tell you that employers are legally responsible for all the actions of their E2 holders. They would tell you that if you terminate (read 'fire') an employee, you are obligated to cancel the VISA, thus releasing any responsibiliity you hold for the actions of that teacher. The teacher is given an exit order and must leave within 14days. The employer must free up your visa slot in order to hire anew teacher.


This is also correct. But many people operate under the misconception that having their visa formally cancelled by their school so that the school can fill the visa slot with a new teacher releases them from needing an LOR to apply for a new position before the old visa was due to expire. This is incorrect. While it still may be possible to slip through the Swiss cheese of Korean Immigration bureaucracy which has improved considerably in the last few years, it is not likely. The exception would be if a school director had a "friend" somewhere in Korean Immigration who could expedite the visa application without an LOR. I have seen this happen a number of times.

My intention here is not to argue with anyone, only to answer questions and clear up misconceptions about Korean immigration law in regards to English teachers, which I have dealt with extensively for the last five years. Smile
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the eye



Joined: 29 Jan 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can appreciate your experience, but I have my own, both personal and secondhand.
I think the main cause of discrepancy in this situation is that immi doesn't follow the same set of procedures from location to location.
While what you said is in fact immigration 'law', the actual practice of it is not uniform or consistent.

Similarly, this reminds me of an Aussie friend, who's been in the country for 4 years, doing nothing but privates. He's being recycling a 3-month tourist visa for 4 years straight, no questions asked.
On the other hand, a Canadian friend was denied entry on the same set of circumstances after 6 months.
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hanson wrote:
Young FRANKenstein wrote:
the eye wrote:
Getting fired DOES release you from your VISA if the employer intends to hire a new teacher. I'm not going into the mechanics of all this again here, but I have it DIRECTLY from the horse's mouth.

Horse's ass maybe. I attended an Immigration informational seminar a few months ago, and this is the opposite of what we were told. If you quit or you resign, you must get a Letter of Release OR go to Immigration with your employer to cancel the visa in person. Nothing short of those 2 things will release you from a visa. All three Immigration officials agreed with this, including the big boss man of Jeollabuk-do Immigration.

Oops, my bad. That should read: "If you are fired or you resign." Brain fart.
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lonewolph wrote:
Whether you quit or are fired, you and your employer must both go to immigration and report it, at which time your work visa will be cancelled and you will have 14 days to leave the country.

There is no "must". He is obligated to do nothing of the kind. Plenty of bosses have refused such an action simply out of spite, and the teacher was SOL.

the eye wrote:
Young FRANKenstein wrote:
So you're saying the head of Jeolla Immigration is wrong, but you are right. Being that I'm in Jeolla, I'm sure you won't mind if I take his word over yours.

I'm not saying he is WRONG. I'm saying he didn't talk about getting fired. I'm saying there are things they DON'T tell english teachers at a public forum.

Actually, he DID. I just mis-typed. He said in EITHER case (fired or quit) the ONLY to ways to have the visa cancelled is the LOR or going in person together to cancel it. He made it clear in no uncertain terms that those were the only two options.
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wylies99



Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are crooked immigration officials who make up the law to suit those who pay them off.
You guys can lecture everyone about the law, but there are so many crooked immigration officials, you NEVER know what's going to happen.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lonewolph wrote:
[color=indigo]I suggest you try to compromise for this reason: you are low on funds and you stand to be terminated if you officially bring the labor board into the situation. Believe it or not, as this is certainly not the way it is back home, reporting an employer to the labor board for illegal or inappropriate actions can be defendable grounds for immediate termination of the reporting teacher. Being reported to the Korean Labor board will tarnish the reputation of the school and thus can be sufficient for the employer to make a case to Korean Immigration for immediate termination of the teacher and their work visa, and difinately no LOR will be granted in order for the teacher to obtain a new work visa. It is sad, but that is the way it works here, much to our chagrin.]


BS. There are quite a number of teachers on here who HAVE gone to the labour board (myself included) and (to the best of my knowledge) not a one of them has ever posted anything like Korean Immigration denying them a work visa for that reason. (although I'm sure a few socks will now pop up to make this claim.)

You sound like a recruiter or hakwon owner attempting to discourage teachers from going to the labour board.

And as other posters have already pointed out, you can get different answers from different Immigration offices...heck you can get different answers from different officials at the SAME office.
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the eye



Joined: 29 Jan 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Lonewolph wrote:
[color=indigo]I suggest you try to compromise for this reason: you are low on funds and you stand to be terminated if you officially bring the labor board into the situation. Believe it or not, as this is certainly not the way it is back home, reporting an employer to the labor board for illegal or inappropriate actions can be defendable grounds for immediate termination of the reporting teacher. Being reported to the Korean Labor board will tarnish the reputation of the school and thus can be sufficient for the employer to make a case to Korean Immigration for immediate termination of the teacher and their work visa, and difinately no LOR will be granted in order for the teacher to obtain a new work visa. It is sad, but that is the way it works here, much to our chagrin.]


BS. There are quite a number of teachers on here who HAVE gone to the labour board (myself included) and (to the best of my knowledge) not a one of them has ever posted anything like Korean Immigration denying them a work visa for that reason. (although I'm sure a few socks will now pop up to make this claim.)


I also have a problem with this. I have been to the labour board as well.
It is usually the EMPLOYER who feels offended, and prohibits a visa cancellation.
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