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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| belzoond wrote: |
| I found your repeated effort to equate the trauma and aftereffects of circumcision with that of vaccination to be disingenuous and that it ignored basic qualitative differences. |
How so? Childhood vaccinations not only involve pain but a very fear-filled experience for a small child. Very few analogies map perfectly. The point is we're okay with making children experience some pain and fear if there is a beneficial end.
In any regard, we both agree that the procedure has little place in Western society as a health practice. As a religious practice or a cultural one with strong religious overtones to a Christian, you're free to convince them to stop. But like I say, I'd rather put my resources into convincing Christians to take their kids to real medical doctors instead of faith healers. But even that I doubt one would make much headway.
The crux of the argument is if research confirms circumcision in Africa provides a significant health benefit (a reduction in AIDS cases), is it ethical to circumcise babies in Africa? I say yes for the previous outlined reasons. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: yes |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
You guys are way off topic, not me.
The Op wrote about lower risk of contracting HIV without as foreskin. Now it has become a moral argument about a child's rights, talking about urinary infection, etc.
I think this is not a good thing to teach people, as it gives people some sort of false hope that without a foreskin, they are somehow safe. Tell that to Africans, and you may be responsible for another 10,000 cases of HIV. |
If being circumcised helps you become safeer, it does not necessarily mean people will have a lot more sex than they do now in Africa. You are assuming a lot. Anyway, saying that is like saying telling Western men that they have a far less chance of getting the virus than women will simply encourage them to have sex, and we shouldn't tell them that.
We do know sex is very tempting and if circumcision does in fact help or may help it is better to be safe than sorry. |
I find it's never a good idea to carry out a policy on a large number of people with the assumption that they are all smart. If there was another operation out there that you could perform on your children that would decrease the chance of them getting pregnant by 30% I don't think it should be done either. You could throw all the educational and free condom programs at them in the world after that and the conclusion they would come to would still be "less chance of knocking my girl up! Awesome! Sex twice tonight!" |
Using that logic, should we not tell people of heart medication or something that would reduce their chance of dying from eating fastfood, because they would then eat more fast food? That doesn't make sense.
People will take risks with sex in Africa and other places regardless, and if it is better for them to be circumcised while sleeping with someone then why not? I personally think we will be able to check AIDs quite soon.
I will give it another 5-10 years maximum. I think we are getting closer to stopping this epidemic that is killing so many people. Instead of fighting and getting juvenile over this topic, and I am not talking about Mithridates, think of the suffering some people are going through. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: yes |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
You guys are way off topic, not me.
The Op wrote about lower risk of contracting HIV without as foreskin. Now it has become a moral argument about a child's rights, talking about urinary infection, etc.
I think this is not a good thing to teach people, as it gives people some sort of false hope that without a foreskin, they are somehow safe. Tell that to Africans, and you may be responsible for another 10,000 cases of HIV. |
If being circumcised helps you become safeer, it does not necessarily mean people will have a lot more sex than they do now in Africa. You are assuming a lot. Anyway, saying that is like saying telling Western men that they have a far less chance of getting the virus than women will simply encourage them to have sex, and we shouldn't tell them that.
We do know sex is very tempting and if circumcision does in fact help or may help it is better to be safe than sorry. |
I find it's never a good idea to carry out a policy on a large number of people with the assumption that they are all smart. If there was another operation out there that you could perform on your children that would decrease the chance of them getting pregnant by 30% I don't think it should be done either. You could throw all the educational and free condom programs at them in the world after that and the conclusion they would come to would still be "less chance of knocking my girl up! Awesome! Sex twice tonight!" |
Using that logic, should we not tell people of heart medication or something that would reduce their chance of dying from eating fastfood, because they would then eat more fast food? That doesn't make sense. |
It makes perfect sense. Would you be sleep well at night if your daughter was to marry somebody you knew to be abusive but it turns out he was taking a type of medication that made it 60% less likely to beat her? Wouldn't you tell her to find another guy instead?
Now if we're talking about the worst parts of Africa, we're talking about places with a literacy rate as low as 30%. Do you trust people to transfer everything by word of mouth with perfect accuracy, and to make sure that each and every one of them understands that condoms / abstinence really is a much better way to avoid AIDS? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_science |
Where is the junk science in your opinion? |
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