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Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Muffin wrote: |
| I don't know whether anyone has got fired but I do know that Dave Sperling has been forced to delete threads about one particular hagwon chain. This board is not as open as it could be but then I guess if he wants to keep in business sometimes he has to bow to pressure. |
This board is not registered in Korea, so to sue Dave one would need deep pockets. So, I doubt Dave (or the mods) were "forced" to delete such threads. More like they chose to, especially if the thread involved a school that paid advertising fees.
This topic comes up on the Japan forums every so often because threads of certain school (notorious beyond the pale) are immediately deleted only because they pay for advertising. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:39 am Post subject: |
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I got threatened with being fired over a post I made here in 2002 ( different ID then) and the thing is, I didn't even mention the school, just that some guy was targeting white girls for sexual assaults in the town that I was in. the director thought it'd make it hard to recruit another white girl.
that said, I still don't think it's as common as suggested in the OP |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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It is reasonable to think that some schools do.
But, why shouldn't they do it?
It is a public board about teaching in Korea......whatever is posted here becomes public knowledge...that alone should be reason to pause and think before you post something right? |
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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
It is reasonable to think that some schools do.
But, why shouldn't they do it?
It is a public board about teaching in Korea......whatever is posted here becomes public knowledge...that alone should be reason to pause and think before you post something right? |
I don't agree homer. The whole point of the internet is to share information, good or bad. It all goes back to the Korean view of master and servant. Just look at how many Korean employers don't pay their teachers and hold back 2-3 months pay so they can have more control over them. It's typical of some crooked Koreans to think they own their employees.
On that note, why is it that most Korean employers hold back salary owed and large companies pay right on time? If I start working for a Korean company on the 15th of March, I get paid on the 25th (pro rated) right along with everyone else. Why is that? |
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The King of Kwangju
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| Muffin wrote: |
| I don't know whether anyone has got fired but I do know that Dave Sperling has been forced to delete threads about one particular hagwon chain. This board is not as open as it could be but then I guess if he wants to keep in business sometimes he has to bow to pressure. |
This board is not registered in Korea, so to sue Dave one would need deep pockets. So, I doubt Dave (or the mods) were "forced" to delete such threads. More like they chose to, especially if the thread involved a school that paid advertising fees.
This topic comes up on the Japan forums every so often because threads of certain school (notorious beyond the pale) are immediately deleted only because they pay for advertising. |
Dave has been pretty open about this. If a school complains, he usually removes the posting, even if they aren't an advertiser.
I'm not sure how deep our pockets would need to be to sue Dave. You'd just need a lawyer who knew Californian law. Might not be so hard, with so many Koreans in LA.
Dave isn't so interested in finding out, however. It's just easier to take it down. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| twg wrote: |
| The point of the internet was to make sure information gets shared, not to be an ass without fear of retribution due to anonymity. I support the idea of user transparency |
Do you support the consequences of user transparency?
Let us suppose an expat went to great pains to disguise the identity of his hagwon, boss and coworkers. While changing all the names, all he accurately describes on these forums (or, perhaps, his blog) is simply what happened.
Now, suppose this expat's real boss reads his post. If the expat is telling the objective truth about the incedent, then the boss will recognise the incedent. Nothing else but an objective description of events will give away the identity of the expat. Nonetheless, if the story paints the boss or hagwon in an unflattering light, then the boss might be a bit displeased, and may have a few unkind words with the expat.
But why would the boss be angry? Not, in this instance, because the expat told a lie. He would be angry because the expat told the truth. The truth, after all, is the only thing that gave the game away.
Who is the villain of this movie? |
Um, this isn't web user transparency. |
I'm aware of that. I'm simply illustrating that the situation could be bad enough even without user transparency.
In a sense, I am agreeing with you. The main difference is that I am expressing disapproval of the consequences rather than the cause. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperFly wrote: |
| On that note, why is it that most Korean employers hold back salary owed and large companies pay right on time? If I start working for a Korean company on the 15th of March, I get paid on the 25th (pro rated) right along with everyone else. Why is that? |
Because - sometimes - Goliath is the good guy and David is the clueless one. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
It is reasonable to think that some schools do.
But, why shouldn't they do it?
It is a public board about teaching in Korea......whatever is posted here becomes public knowledge...that alone should be reason to pause and think before you post something right? |
Everyone in the world has the right to read this forum. I have no argument there. So if you're approving of hagwon directors skimming these forums, well ... it's not the same as breaking into your apartment and snooping, at least.
However, are you expressing approval of threats and sackings based on comments made in the teacher's own private time? |
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bellum99
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: don't need to know
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Sometimes the kiss-butt western teacher rats out the other teachers to the boss. Sometimes they tell the boss because it is "best for the school". Happened to me once...you gotta love those Western Head Teachers. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperFly wrote: |
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On that note, why is it that most Korean employers hold back salary owed and large companies pay right on time? If I start working for a Korean company on the 15th of March, I get paid on the 25th (pro rated) right along with everyone else. Why is that? |
MOST Korean EMPLOYERS? You mean like Samsung, LG, and all the rest? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Homer wrote: |
It is reasonable to think that some schools do.
But, why shouldn't they do it?
It is a public board about teaching in Korea......whatever is posted here becomes public knowledge...that alone should be reason to pause and think before you post something right? |
Everyone in the world has the right to read this forum. I have no argument there. So if you're approving of hagwon directors skimming these forums, well ... it's not the same as breaking into your apartment and snooping, at least.
However, are you expressing approval of threats and sackings based on comments made in the teacher's own private time? |
Are you expressing approval of libel and false accusations?
See the problem is here, that one can never know whether things written here about schools are true or false. Also you have to take into account that some teachers could have a great time at this school and some could have a bad time.
Bottom line though. If a teacher has the right to post accusations (true or false) the director has the right to defend his school. And given that the language of this board is English, it's much easier just to warn the teacher to stop that, instead of saying "No, this is not true...here is what really happened..." |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Are you expressing approval of libel and false accusations? |
The best way I can answer this question is to ask you to read my first post on this thread. I provided a fictitious example of what I would regard as a perfectly reasonable "rant". The hypothetical teacher simply describes what happened without giving away the school, location or identities of the people involved. I should have added an "epilogue" where the teacher asks others to PM him if they want to know the name of his school. Whatever the case, a director / fellow staffmember reading such a post will *only* sound off alarm bells if s/he *recognises the incident being described*. In other words, the incident has to be *true* to cause offence.
I know that this is not always the case. Many posters cannot resist the temptation to name and shame the school right off the bat, usually intended as a "warning" for other potential employees. However, I cannot see fault with the hypothetical example I have provided. |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| The King of Kwangju wrote: |
| I'm not sure how deep our pockets would need to be to sue Dave. You'd just need a lawyer who knew Californian law. Might not be so hard, with so many Koreans in LA. |
Well, if the school is here in Korea, they'd need enough money to afford a lawyer who will file stuff internationally. Not cheap by a longshot. What do they start at $400/$500 an hour?
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| Dave isn't so interested in finding out, however. It's just easier to take it down. |
This the absolute best reason why no one should count on using this board for researching ANY school they are considering signing on with. If a school can get negative stuff taken down so easily, the research is skewed in its favour... not good at all for the teacher who ends up getting screwed in the end. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: |
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I have it on good authority that the larger chains (YBM, Pagoda and Korea Poly Schools) do troll the boards for comments made about their schools.
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Well, considering that their schools SUCK POOS I'm not surprised they'd get absolutely negative comments about them.
And, they can take that to the bank. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Lets be clear here. I do not agree that a school should base its firing of a teacher based on what they read here. That would be stupid and highly unprofessional.
However, as a school owner, why not peruse the site to see what is being said? If a teacher works at a school and starts lambasting this school here by naming it, its director and so on then that school has a right to address the issue with the teacher no?
This is not a private conversation between two people, it is a public discussion board open to all who wish to read it.
Now a teacher who just rants about mundane stuff at his job is no big deal and a school would be ill advised to discipline the teacher for such comments (but I am sure some schools would...). But, a teacher who accuses a school of very precise things, names the school and the director is taking a chance because that can be consider libel or a false accusation that could hurt the schools reputation...in such a case, it is a logical assumption that a school would reply or take action.
An anonymous rant (no school name) is far better and a far smarter thing to do online, at least while you are employed by the school you wish to critize.
Now, in the past some claims about schools have turned out to be true and helped others. This is the very clear benefit of a public discussion forum. In other cases the person doing the ranting was proved to have lied and fabricated a story about his/her school. Thats the bad side of an anonymous discussion board and thats slander.....
So, it makes perfect sense for a school director to check out various discussion boards to see what is going on in them. Imagine a school seeing its name plastered all across a thread...it could wish to retort as there are often two sides to a story. Imagine a school seeing a contract it offered being posted openly with the school name and address in it....right next to the confidentiality clause that says the contract should not be shared... |
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