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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: 3 possible outcomes re: Islam in Europe |
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Daniel Pipes suggests that there are three possible outcomes for the muslims in Europe..
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Muslim Rule
EUROPE NEEDS immigrants (the fertility rate is about 1.4 children per woman, just two-thirds the replacement rate of 2.1) to avoid severe population decline, with all the woes that implies�particularly an absence of workers to fund generous pension plans�and Muslims tend to make up that imported third of the population. In part, this is because Muslims are close by; it�s only 13 kilometers from Morocco to Spain. After moving to Europe, Muslims relieve European childlessness with a high fertility rate. Although the Muslim fertility rate is falling, it remains three times that of indigenous Europeans. In Brussels, �Muhammad� has for some years been the most popular name given to boys. Amsterdam and Rotterdam are on track to have majority Muslim populations by about 2015.
Muslims Rejected
AMERICAN COLUMNIST Ralph Peters dismisses the first scenario: �Far from enjoying the prospect of taking over Europe by having babies, Europe�s Muslims are living on borrowed time. . . . predictions of a Muslim takeover of Europe . . . ignore history and Europe�s ineradicable viciousness.� Instead, depicting Europe as the place �that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing�, he predicts its Muslims �will be lucky just to be deported� and not killed. Claire Berlinski, in Menace in Europe: Why the Continent�s Crisis Is America�s, Too, implicitly agrees, pointing to the �ancient conflicts and patterns . . . now shambling out of the mists of European history.�
This scenario has indigenous Europeans�who still constitute 95 percent of the population�waking up one day and asserting themselves. �Basta!� they will say and reclaim their historic order. This is not so remote; some Europeans, while scarce in the elite, loudly protest the changes already underway. Examples include the anti-hijab legislation in France, irritation over restrictions on national flags and Christian symbols and the insistence on serving wine at state dinners. In early 2006, several French cities saw a spontaneous movement to serve pork soup to the poor, thus excluding Muslims.
Muslims Integrated
IN THE happiest scenario, Europeans and Muslim immigrants live together harmoniously. Perhaps the classic statement of this was a 1991 study, La France, une chance pour l�Islam (�France, an Opportunity for Islam�) by Jeanne-H�l�ne and Pierre-Patrick Kaltenbach. �For the first time in history�, they wrote, �Islam is offered the chance to waken in a democratic, rich, laic, and peaceable country.� That hopefulness lives on. An Economist leader from mid-2006 asserts that �for the moment at least, the prospect of Eurabia looks like scaremongering.� Also at that time, Jocelyne Cesari, associate professor of Islamic studies at the Harvard Divinity School, claimed a balance exists: Just as �Islam is changing Europe�, she said, �Europe is changing Islam.� She finds that �Muslims in Europe do not want to change the nature of European states� and expects them to adapt themselves into the European context.
Such optimism has little foundation, but not so much because Europeans will rediscover faith, have more babies, cherish their heritage, encourage non-Muslim immigration and acculturate the Muslims among them. Such changes are not now underway, nor are their prospects good. Instead, harmony is unlikely because Muslims cultivate grievances against, and hold ambitions at odds with, their indigenous neighbors. |
http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=13710
My feeling is that the Europeans will reject them, and that it will not be pretty. In my opinion, we ought to never underestimate European cultural chauvinism and xenophobia. I think that harmony is the least likely possibility, and muslim dominance somewhere in the middle.
I feel it necessary to establish some parameters.. This isn't about me, Pipes or Bush. Kindly keep to the topic.
Which will it be? |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Im for a rejection. Albania is a state without the right to exist. Clar them out of the balkans, out of the EU. Reject. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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My guess would be sporadic attempts at rejection here and there, but ultimate integration. I agree with The Economist that the whole Eurabia thing is mostly hype, built on largely anecdotal(albeit not neccessarily false) evidence and conflation of various issues.
I do think, though, that you might see some European countries moving more toward the French model of hardnosed state secularism. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| France just insistuted a law forbidding the media to present pitures of or report on violence committed by Muslims. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| France just insistuted a law forbidding the media to present pitures of or report on violence committed by Muslims. |
Seriously? All criminal acts? Not saying you're lying, but you got a link for that? |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| France just insistuted a law forbidding the media to present pitures of or report on violence committed by Muslims. |
Seriously? All criminal acts? Not saying you're lying, but you got a link for that? |
No, a good friend of mine heard it on the "Michael Savage" news radio show, the savage nation |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| now if that isn't BS I don't know what is. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| We shall see what happens in the upcoming French election. Can you say "Arbeit Macht Frei"? I would suggest that Muslims in Europe tread lightly. |
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socrates flitcraft
Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: pass me an irregular shaped rock |
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| I long for the day when my unborn daughter can be punnished for her promiscuity with the wise justice of sharia law by some numtpy in a frock. Bradford ignorant ghetto massive 4- Paris pinkies 0 |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| now if that isn't BS I don't know what is. |
Yes, it is BS. The law in question makes it illegal to film violence commited by anyone, not just Muslims. Journalists are exempt from the law, though how they define a "journalist", I do not know.
NAVFC wrote:
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| a good friend of mine heard it on the "Michael Savage" news radio show, the savage nation |
If that's what Michael Savage said, I think he was lying.
http://tinyurl.com/34erx8 |
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Hyalucent
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: British North America
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Please keep this thread civil. |
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