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SHOULD PM ABE OF JAPAN RESIGN OVER HIS WARTIME REMARKS?
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chris_J2



Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD

Have you ever been to the Nanjing Massacre Museum? I suggest you go there. Expats (Missionaries eg) used to refer to the Japanese as the 'Beast Group', & with good reason, which will become clear after your visit.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if I go to the museum, I will then support the notion that Japan today is morally responsible for the crimes of the Imperial Japanese government of 65 years ago?
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stevemcgarrett



Joined: 24 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD:

Some of those ultranationalists from the war era are still alive and many of their descendants are carrying on their bulls-hit bushido tradition, making this far from a moot point of concern.

The Japanese government has long stymied efforts for reparations to the comfort women. What these women want most is their dignity and Abe's insensitive remarks and the Japanese government's continued refusal to take full responsibility for the animalistic behavior of the Imperial Army is a slap in the face to them and only serves to justify jingoistic sentiments in China and Korea against the Japanese. Now surely you can discern this much?

Moreover, if you think that the Japanese government's toleration of inaccurate history textbooks and comments like Abe's are merely a reaction to the hostility from China and Korea and an effort to preserve the honor of the current generation, then I've got some lovely seaside property in Afghanistan I'd like to sell you.
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jinju



Joined: 22 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Japan is responsible for acts it committed. period. 65 years ago was not that long ago. They worship war crominals, they never divorced themselves from their past and instead glorify it all the while whitewashing their crimes. Until japan thrwos the remains of war criminals in the trash and stops lying about their recent history they will always be held to account for their crimes.

Shaku is a sicko Korea hater that needs to be ignored.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jinju wrote:
Japan is responsible for acts it committed. period. 65 years ago was not that long ago. They worship war crominals, they never divorced themselves from their past and instead glorify it all the while whitewashing their crimes. Until japan thrwos the remains of war criminals in the trash and stops lying about their recent history they will always be held to account for their crimes.

Shaku is a sicko Korea hater that needs to be ignored.


"Japan" didn't do anything. The (now defeated) government of Japan at the time did horrible things. Those who actually participated should be dealt with under international law, and Abe should be sensitive. Those victims who are still alive ought to be compensated, after a full examination of all historical evidence by a neutral body.

I don't think Shaku is a "korea hater". His blog focuses almost exclusively on Korean related nonsense, but there are hundreds of thousands of sites around this world that focus exclusively on the nonsense coming out of America. Criticism, even if exclusive, isn't hate. I don't think his blog crosses the line at all. Though, some of the commentators do cross that line.

But why Japan, and why now? Why not Ukrainians demanding repeated apologies from Moscow? Tibetans from China? When will Belgium and France step up and make repeated apologies and pay massive reparations to those states in Africa they destroyed? Germany and Japan are not the only examples of state-criminals. Why Japan, now?

There is more to this than the crime of a long-gone criminal government.
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jinju



Joined: 22 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:


"Japan" didn't do anything. The (now defeated) government of Japan at the time did horrible things.


The war efort took pretty much the whole country. Everyone involved in the war effprt from the emperor to the generals to the foot soldiers to the people in factories making weapons, etc etc etc were involved and are guilty to some extent.

After the war, Japan never did what Germany did: they never rejected their history. Instead, they glorify it. They worship and honor criminals. Thats the reason why japan is still guilty. All of them.


Quote:
But why Japan, and why now? Why not Ukrainians demanding repeated apologies from Moscow? Tibetans from China? When will Belgium and France step up and make repeated apologies and pay massive reparations to those states in Africa they destroyed? Germany and Japan are not the only examples of state-criminals. Why Japan, now?


Irrelevent to a KOREA discussion. Im sure you can figure it out if you put your brain to it. However if you think there isnt animosity in Ukraine towards Moscow, in Africa towards the colonial powers, in Tibet towards China (or those who fled Tibet, like, well, the Dalai Lama) then you are wrong. However this is Korea, and I really wouldnt expect Ukranian-Russian issues to be a big deal here.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree to disagree about the first part. The second part, well, fine. I forget where ya'll live sometimes.
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jinju



Joined: 22 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
Agree to disagree about the first part. The second part, well, fine. I forget where ya'll live sometimes.


After the war, Japan never did what Germany did: they never rejected their history. Instead, they glorify it. They worship and honor criminals.

How can you disagree with this? Its fact.
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JeJuJitsu



Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jinju wrote:
BJWD wrote:
Agree to disagree about the first part. The second part, well, fine. I forget where ya'll live sometimes.


After the war, Japan never did what Germany did: they never rejected their history. Instead, they glorify it. They worship and honor criminals.

How can you disagree with this? Its fact.


Christ, your photos are crap. "Oh, look at my photos. I put the camera 5 inches from the subject, tilt it to the side, use Black & White!" Wow! I wish I had that three minutes of my life back.

How do you exactly reject your history "like the Germans?" Please, list the steps, Chucklehead.
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jinju



Joined: 22 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeJuJitsu wrote:

How do you exactly reject your history "like the Germans?" Please, list the steps, Chucklehead.


Ill try to use small words:

You dont put people who did bad things during war in shrines and worship them.
You dont lie about history in books
You dont make your evil ancestors into heroes.


Was that easy to understand?
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JeJuJitsu



Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemcgarrett wrote:
shaku:

What's really pathetic is your insistence on defending Abe over semantics about the meaning of coercion. No matter how you slice it, it still means by use of force or against one's will. Stop the word gymnastics and get to the heart of the matter. The Japanese exploited these women for their own selfish purposes. Even if it bears out that Abe was misquoted, he and his government are still stonewalling and dissembling. If you and mith and the other apologists can't see that, well that's your problem.

Quote:
Anyway, looking at this thread and seeing various comments about the Japanese being "genetically evil", and such things, it seems that racism is a strong motivator for some of the people on this thread.


By the way, I have not made any blanket statements about Japanese, so address your accusations of racism to those who have rather than lumping me in with them to deflate my contentions.

Quote:
There was no system of sexual slavery. No contemporary document supports it. The documents that do exist (including the US army document that I linked) argue against it. If 2% of the Korean female population had been kidnapped by the Japanese army, do you think that Koreans would not even know about it until the 1980s? There would have been writings about it, notes in diaries, protests, ect, but there is nothing.


Usually when someone is forced to do something against their will that involves their labor and loss of dignity and isn't even reimbursed, that's slavery. Whether it was organized as a system is therefore beside the point. I wish I had time to dredge up the records for you but your contention that this was "discovered" only two decades ago is plain horse manure.

Put down that bottle of sake, Tojo.


You are getting your ass kicked in this argument. pretty funny.
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JeJuJitsu



Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jinju wrote:
JeJuJitsu wrote:

How do you exactly reject your history "like the Germans?" Please, list the steps, Chucklehead.


Ill try to use small words:

You dont put people who did bad things during war in shrines and worship them.
You dont lie about history in books
You dont make your evil ancestors into heroes.


Was that easy to understand?


How about lying about what is actually said? Throws a monkey Wrench into your idea, no?

http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/03/05/congress-backstabs-us-ally-times-lie-trashes-abe/
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jinju



Joined: 22 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lying about what?

Did Japan sexually enslave more women than you can fathom and serially rape them over years? yes, their own documents say it

Did Japan slaughter civillians? Yes

Did Japan invade countries and engage in vile, evil behavior? yes

Did Japan ever trully apologize? No, not really

Does Japan feel bad for what it did? No. They glorify their past and worship war criminals.


I wont call japan an evil country. But I dont think its up for debate that its a country that is led by a weasel and a bunch or rabid nationalist scoundrels. Its also a country that, very much like an ostrich, is trying to hide its head in the sand. But it wont work. The weasel has created a storm and Japan better face up to it. Some backbone and an infusion of honor would do that pathetic nation of automatons a lot of good.
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chris_J2



Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Comfort Women Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:

Quote:
And if I go to the museum, I will then support the notion that Japan today is morally responsible for the crimes of the Imperial Japanese government of 65 years ago?


I think you will, & you'll also get to improve your chronology. The Nanjing Massacre was in 1937/1938. (Not 65 years ago). I recall a prominent sign there, that stated in English, "Forgive but not Forget". To suggest that the Chinese are indoctrinated to hate the Japanese is ludicrous. Carefully read the following.

"Missionaries Record Historic Events "American Missionary Eyewitnesses to the Nanjing Massacre," the current Yale Divinity Library exhibit, includes documentation from the papers of nine American missionaries who remained in Nanjing throughout the Massacre. By some estimates, the Japanese army killed more than 300,000 Chinese and raped nearly 80,000 women in the city of Nanjing between December 13, 1937 and the end of March, 1938. The missionaries' letters, diaries, reports, and photographs provide graphic evidence of a horrific frenzy of beheading, bayoneting, burying alive, burning, gang-raping, and other atrocities. This evidence is of particular interest because the Japanese government has refused to officially recognize that these atrocities took place, nor does any mention of the Nanjing Massacre appear in Japanese school textbooks. When Nanjing fell to the Japanese, there were twenty-seven Westerners remaining in the city; of these fifteen were Americans, primarily missionaries from the Episcopal, Disciples of Christ, Presbyterian, and Methodist churches. The missionaries worked together with others, including the German businessman John Rabe, to establish the International Committee for the Nanking Safety Zone shortly before the capture of Nanjing by the Japanese. Once the Massacre set in, the Safety Zone became the only place that offered some resemblance of sanctuary; more than 200,000 people crowded into the Zone, an area about one-eighth of the city. The missionaries, Rabe, and a few other Westerners risked their lives daily in order to protect thousands of Chinese from being murdered and thousands of women from being raped by the Japanese army.

The Divinity Library recently received a photocopy of the extensive diary of John Rabe. This diary came to light only a few months ago when Rabe's granddaughter was tracked down by a researcher who had come across Rabe's name in the missionary accounts held at the Divinity Library. Rabe's diary is of particular interest because he was a German and a member of the Nazi Party. Germany was strengthening its alliance with Japan during this time period and it was of no possible personal gain to Rabe for him to expose the Japanese atrocities. When he went back to Germany in February 1938 and tried to bring the Japanese activities to the attention of the German government, his efforts were rebuffed and his career suffered significantly. Since certain Japanese officials have sought to characterize American accounts of the Nanjing massacre as fabrications designed to discredit the Japanese, it is of note that a German ally's accounts clearly corroborate those of the Americans.

The Divinity Library exhibit on the Nanjing Massacre will be up through January 31. On Friday, January 31, at 4:00 p.m. Professor Beatrice Bartlett of Yale's History department will present a lecture on the Nanjing Massacre in Marquand Chapel. A reception in the Library's Day Missions Reading Room will follow. "

Source: http://www.library.yale.edu/NotaBene/nbx3/divupdat.htm

And I think Yale University is a far more credible & superior source, than 'Occidentalism', btw. But I agree with BJWD that Abe is only inflaming the situation.
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stevemcgarrett



Joined: 24 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jinju:

Ignore JeJuJitsu. He's the sock of a sock and about as informed. And we can't all have sensational avatars like a panda doing exercises. Rolling Eyes

chrisJ2:

Quite correct about Nanking. I've been to the museum in Nanjing too. It's sobering to say the least and the pile of bones displayed as they were left buried in the ground is most unsettling. And this massacre, while huge in scale, was far from the only one.

Manila was razed to the ground by retreating Japanese forces in the winter of 1945 for no other reason than to deny resources to the advancing American forces. Manila saw more destruction than any other city occupied during the war at a point in time when the Imperial Japanese Army was forestalling the inevitable. By the way, lots of Filipina comfort women there too.
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