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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Emperor Octavius:
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| North knew that the US couldn't fight a long war because they didn't have the stomach for it. |
Er-correction. They knew that the liberals and radicals couldn't stomach it, especially in the universities and Hollywood.
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| Perhaps the American's never lost a battle, so what? |
If I had a dime for every time you said this, I'd be rich. The point, which obviously escaped you, is that we did not in fact "get our asses kicked for 10 years" as you proclaimed. It wasn't even until the latter stages of the war that the troubles at home began to affect military policy.
And counting.... Before the end of the current year, I'll be cited as the most educated man in the world. I have one earned doctorate, two earned master's degrees and one earned undergraduate degree representing three majors. None were from an airport vending machine like yours.
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| America will never win in Iraq, and that is a fact. |
Sounds like something a first semester debate student in high school would say. How can it be a fact before the fact? 
And Hite, I won't respond to your accusations against Bush for the reason I already stated: anyone who uses the phrase "Bush Crime Family" is not only being slanderous but is beyond the point of being convinced otherwise.
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| and we didn't need a Pearl Habour either. |
America was already sending destroyers and weaponry to Britain and merchant ships (many of which were sunk) through U-Boat infested waters to Murmansk long before Pearl Harbor.
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| what happened to the White House in 1812? |
Hite, you almost sound bellicose there. With British assistance you waged war with a very young republic. Gee, I'm impressed. And those Mounties give me the heebie-jeebies. Ah, yes, your contributions to the war against the Nazis were overwhelming. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah, yes, your contributions to the war against the Nazis were overwhelming. |
See this is how I know you are just an ESL Teacher with his BA, if that.
At the end of the second world war Canada had the third largest Navy in the world. If not for us England and Europe would have starved.
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If I had a dime for every time you said this, I'd be rich. The point, which obviously escaped you, is that we did not in fact "get our asses kicked for 10 years" as you proclaimed. It wasn't even until the latter stages of the war that the troubles at home began to affect military policy.
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USA dead: 58,209
wounded: 153,303
Smells like victory.
And as for the war of 1812, we repulsed an invasion by a foriegn power. We didn't wage war on a young republic, you invaded us and were repulsed, sounds familiar no? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Octavius:
Waging war is not necessarily starting a war and, no, I'm not trying to mince words. Regardless, the Canadians received considerable military support from the British.
Now, chew on this fat for awhile (cited sources from opentopia online):
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| At the start of the war Canada, to its relief, could not enter combat as it was appointed to the UN truce commissions and thus had to remain officially neutral in the conflict. The Canadian negotiators were strongly on the side of the Americans, however. Some delegates even engaged in espionage on behalf of the Americans, with the approval of the Canadian government. Canada also sent foreign aid to South Vietnam, that while humanitarian, was directed by the Americans. |
and this:
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| several thousand Canadians joined the U.S. military and fought with the Americans in Vietnam; estimates range from 3,500 to 10,000. Several thousand more Canadians joined and served with the U.S. military but did not fight in Vietnam. One hundred and ten (110) Canadians died in Vietnam and seven remain listed as Missing in Action. Many of these were Canadians who had long lived in the United States, Canadians with US citizenship who were drafted or had previously served in the U.S., and out-of-work soldiers who had been the victims of recent government cutbacks. Still others volunteered because of ideological or moral support of the American war effort. |
and this:
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| Canada's official diplomatic position was as a non-participant, but the country was not neutral in the conflict: it professed explicit support for the United States. Canada was also a major supplier of equipment and supplies to the American forces. Under UN rules Canada could not send these directly to South Vietnam, but they could sell them to the United States. Throughout the Vietnam War Canadian manufacturers profited greatly from the conflict. These included relatively benign items like boots and whiskey, but also napalm and Agent Orange the use of which was fiercely opposed by antiwar protesters at the time. Between 1965 and 1973 Canada sold some $2.5 billion worth of mat�riel to the American forces. Canada also allowed their NATO ally to use Canadian facilities and bases for training exercises and weapons testing. |
and lest you persist in the belief that the Vietnam War was strictly an American engagement with communism, read this:
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| U.S. allies took casualties as well. South Korea provided the largest outside force and suffered between 4,400 and 5,000 killed.[link] Full details including WIA and MIA appear difficult to find. Australia lost 510 dead and 3,131 wounded out of the 48,000 troops they had deployed to Vietnam. New Zealand had 38 dead and 187 wounded. Thailand had 351 casualties. It is difficult to locate accurate figures for the losses of the Philippines. Although Canada was not involved in the war, thousands of Canadians joined the U.S. armed forces and served in Vietnam. The US fatal casualties include at least 56 Canadian citizens. It is difficult to estimate the exact number because some Canadians crossed the border to volunteer for service under false pretenses whereas others were permanent residents living in the United States who either volunteered or were drafted. |
and this:
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| South Korea's military represented the second largest contingent of foreign troops in South Vietnam. South Korea dispatched its first troops beginning in 1964, although combat battalions began arriving a year later. Approximately 300,000 South Korean soldiers were sent to Vietnam on an annual basis between 1964 and 1973. The maximum number of South Korean troops there at one time was 50,000. More than 5,000 South Koreans were killed and 11,000 were injured in the war. |
but let's not forget this:
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| Along with US forces, Australia and New Zealand sent ground troops to Vietnam. After assisting in the Malayan Emergency, both nations had gained valuable experience at Jungle Warfare and counter-insurgency. They also believed that the domino theory was playing out, and that they could be a victim of communism too. Australia's peak commitment was 7672 combat troops and New Zealand 552. To achieve this, Australia re-introduced conscription, a highly controversial act due to the significant level of public opposition to the war. Australia, like the US, first sent advisors to Vietnam, the number of which continued to rise steadily until 1965 when combat troops were committed. |
nor this:
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| Thai soldiers fought in Laos for several years. While in theory volunteers fighting as so-called Unity Battalions, they were in fact Thai regulars fighting against North Vietnam and the Pathet Lao. The battalions were active between 1970 and 1972. |
Now go get some tissue for that bloody nose. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Stevemcgarret's position in a nutshell:
America lost because..........
America still lost buddy. |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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don't you ever get tired of being wrong?
I'll start with your most recent post. The US couldn't beat the dominion of Canada in the war of 1812. They lost the white house. Your take is that the US was only a young country, but Canada wasn;t even a country and the Brits were more than occupied with a war in Europe.
Insulting Canadian military contributions in WW2 shows what an ass wipe you really are. Canada had about 10.4% of it's population serve in the war, and suffered a higher casualty rate than the American armed forces. The US had a servive rate of 12.3% (if I recall). More than that, Canada fought and served for a full two years longer. You want to talk about 'leftist' causing problems in vietnam, the US didn't enter the war in 1939 because of conservatives, and look what happened. BTW, at the end of the war Canada's armed servives were the 4th largest in the world.
Moreover, with regards to your leftist made us lose comment, what about people like Bush? It wasn't leftists that made the Americans LOSE the war in vietnam, it was blind ideological interpretations that were completely disconnected from the reality of the situation and on the ground (now doesn;t that sound familiar). George Ball opposed the war from the get go. As to the 'we would have won if we used nucs' comment, brilliant. Do you actually think? And I don;t mean think before you write, but think period.
Moreover, The US involvement in Vietnam was an HORRENDOUS failure. From ike's two terms onward just about everything they did failed. It was 'one more increase in support, one more 'surge', one more, one more... and it was never enough. They engaged a backwater, non-industrialized, rag-tag army, and LOST. yes, they won the 4 major engagements that the war saw, but THEY LOST THE WAR! What does that tell you??? Perhaps most confusing of all, you blame leftist but then state:
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| It wasn't even until the latter stages of the war that the troubles at home began to affect military policy. |
As for 'XXX countries' also served, that doesn't really help your case. The US used more bombs than were dropped in the second world war on a relatively small country. They had hundreds of thousands of troops, and the most technically advanced military in the world. They fought with the aid of all of the other nations you listed. And what happened? THEY LOST!!!!
One thing which I think you should answer, is where these degrees you have are from, and what they were in. You keep making reference to them, while attacking the academic credentials of others, so let's hear what yours are, rather than vague references.
Last edited by freethought on Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| And as for the war of 1812, we repulsed an invasion by a foriegn power. We didn't wage war on a young republic, you invaded us and were repulsed, sounds familiar no? |
Correction: "you" did not exist in 1812, Octavius. And "we" were fighting Britain, aiming to deny London a place in the Americas, take as much as we could for ourselves, and, elsewhere, if you look at American diplomacy of the era, aiming to prevent European powers from trading these colonies around like they were baseball cards via our "no-transfer" policy -- especially in Spanish-held Florida, Spanish/French-held Mississipi, and Spanish-held but British-coveted Cuba, for example.
Please also note that the British had attempted to expand its Canadian holdings to cover much of the American Midwest as early as Parliament's Quebec Act. And after the Revolutionary War, the British armed and supported many Indian tribes to America's west. Do not forget this when speaking of expansionist drives and who started pushing whom first.
In any case, I wholly reject the idea that the 1812 War represented a U.S.-Canadian conflict. The proper context of this war, by the way, was the Napoleonic Wars and the ongoing European imperial games in the New World, which America actively took part in soon after achieving independence.
And I also agree with this Wikipedia summary on British naval action and its role in the White House burning you and Freethought seem to want to attribute to nonexistent "Canadian" naval and/or other military forces...
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| At sea the powerful Royal Navy instituted a blockade of the majority of the American coastline (allowing some exports from New England, which was trading with Britain and Canada in defiance of American laws.) The blockade devastated American agricultural exports, but helped stimulate local factories that replaced goods previously imported. The American strategy of using small gunboats to defend ports was a fiasco, as the British raided the coast at will. The most famous episode was a series of British raids on the shores of Chesapeake Bay which included an attack on Washington that resulted in the burning of the White House and other public buildings... |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| The reference to the CF by both of us refers to the WW2 period. But the role that Canadian Militia's and our Native forces are well documentated in the war of 1812. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Freethought wrote:
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| I'll start with your most recent post. The US couldn't beat the dominion of Canada in the war of 1812. |
The Dominion Of Canada did not exist in 1812, not even in name.
http://tinyurl.com/22o3z7
Octavius wrote:
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| But the role that Canadian Militia'sand our Native forces are well documentated in the war of 1812. |
Yes, but according to Freethought, the War Of 1812 was a case of the US getting beat by "the Dominion Of Canada", and this somehow proves something about American military capability in 1812.
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| The US couldn't beat the dominion of Canada in the war of 1812. They lost the white house. |
Leaving aside the above mentioned historical anachronism, saying that the US got beat by Canada in the War Of 1812 is like saying that Japan got beat by Korea in World War II, because Korea had some resistance groups fighting against the Japanese. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| ...this somehow proves something about American military capability in 1812. |
And, for the record, most educated Americans understand that the American Revolution succeeded thanks to not a little French backing. Beyond that, no one argues that the American Navy projected any significant power in world affairs until the 1890s. And the combined sea-air-land military power that America projects today did not exist until the Second World War and its aftermath.
America had little to say about much, then, even regards the American coast, in 1812. I have only seen such "issues" raised and "discussed" on this board in the nationalist-charged, American-Canadian exchanges... |
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Canucksaram
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| [S]aying that the US got beat by Canada in the War Of 1812 is like saying that Japan got beat by Korea in World War II, because Korea had some resistance groups fighting against the Japanese. |
Wasn't that Kim Il Sung's official position on it? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Octavius wrote:
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America lost because..........
America still lost buddy. |
Oh, teacha, teacha, lookee. Not a single response to my last post. Chock up another one for McGarrett.
freethought wrote:
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| Insulting Canadian military contributions in WW2 shows what an ass wipe you really are. Canada had about 10.4% of it's population serve in the war, and suffered a higher casualty rate than the American armed forces. The US had a servive rate of 12.3% (if I recall). More than that, Canada fought and served for a full two years longer. |
I certainly don't begrudge the Canadians of that era their valor and participation. They were certainly more willing to defend freedom than more recent generations. However, just because their casualty rates were higher means nothing.
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| You want to talk about 'leftist' causing problems in vietnam, the US didn't enter the war in 1939 because of conservatives, |
Another historically uninformed response. Isolationism was rampant in both parties at the time and as I already said, we entered the war in many unofficial capacities. Canada, as part of the Commonwealth, actually had more of an immediate obligation to aid the British than we did.
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| at the end of the war Canada's armed servives were the 4th largest in the world. |
I question that ranking but considering how many standing armies had been decimated by 1945, that's not saying a whole lot. And, anyhow, who cares?
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| It wasn't leftists that made the Americans LOSE the war in Vietnam, it was blind ideological interpretations that were completely disconnected from the reality of the situation and on the ground |
What weed are you smoking? The Johnson Administration got us knee deep into the war well before the Tet Offensive or Nixon's arrival.
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| Moreover, The US involvement in Vietnam was an HORRENDOUS failure. From ike's two terms onward just about everything they did failed. |
Uh, hardly a rag-tag army when conscription rates for the NVA were double our own, with massive support from China and Russia and a VC insurgency in the South.
You remind me of a middle school student trying to raise a historical objection in the Model United Nations club.
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| One thing which I think you should answer, is where these degrees you have are from, and what they were in. You keep making reference to them, while attacking the academic credentials of others, so let's hear what yours are, rather than vague references. |
I've indicated where and it what fields elsewhere on this forum. So I'll leave it to you to scout it out. I don't bring up my education unless some other poster does so first (which frequently happens). Sorry about your insecurities. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| You want to talk about 'leftist' causing problems in vietnam, the US didn't enter the war in 1939 because of conservatives, and look what happened |
Nice use of the word 'conservative' to shift responsibility away from the lefties...yeah Gerald P. Nye and the America First Committee they were part of the peace movement at all |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Only on Dave's will a thread start out about pickles and wind up discussing how the great and mighty Canada invaded ans destroyed the evil American oppressors during the great War of 1812.
Thank God (Is he/she Canadian?) for Canadian Heritage Moments, eh? I'm sure that many times in your lives you have discussed the arrogance of Americans and the way that they love to toot their own horns. But, do you realize that Canadians are twice as bad? Only Canadians qualify everything they've learned from CHMs.
Discussions in the bar, conversations on the street, posts on this board... Anytime you mention anything, a Canadian will pipe in and say, "Hey, a Canadian invented/did/invaded blah, blah, blah..."
What if every noun you mentioned was qualified as being invented or created by an American? It would surely be as boring a conversation as most conversations with the Canadian Heritage Canadians.
Don't forget to mention how a Canadian invented basketball, Superman, and the telephone (which, by the way, were all invented in the United States and are hardly Canadian inventions). Then this thread will be complete. I guess it shows that something doesn't have to be necessarily true in order to make you feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside. Just remember this little Dave's Heritage Moment next time you're complaining about the self-absorbed Americans and how they act like they are the center of the universe. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Plig:
Canadian Heritage Moments.
And you're right, only on Dave's do we all get so side-tracked.  |
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