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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| (ahmedinejad)The man is a nincompoop who has been given far more coverage than he deserves. |
Oh dear, it looks like we have a racist. Big bird is it normal for you to insult the leaders of other nations because they are muslims?
Last edited by Julius on Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hizballah is a race? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
| She is on "Team Palestinian" and others (hard right-wingers?) are on "Team Israel". And they hurl insults at each other and obsess about the evil of the other side. |
I don't think the team analogy is a valid one. Seems to me more that she's concerned for human rights regardless of the side.
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I don't see evidence of that GAJ.
A few threads back she said that their should be restrictions of trade to Israel. I said no, as that would only hurt poor Israelis and benefit large European firms competing with Israeli firms. She said the poor Israelis deserved it as they were the racist ones.
Human rights? No. She is on a basic team mentality. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Time to be clear about Ahmadinejad did in fact say.
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The Cole Report
When it comes to Iran, he distorts, you decide.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, May 2, 2006, at 4:26 PM ET
In some ways, the continuing row over his call for the complete destruction of Israel must baffle Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. All he did, after all, was to turn up at a routine anti-Zionist event and repeat the standard line�laid down by the Ayatollah Khomeini and thus considered by some to be beyond repeal�that the state of Israel is illegitimate and must be obliterated. There's nothing new in that. In the early '90s, I can remember seeing, in the areas around Baalbek in Lebanon that were dominated by Hezbollah and Amal, large posters of the by-then-late Khomeini embellished (in English) with the slogan, "Israel Must Be Completely Destroyed!" And I have twice been to Friday prayers in Tehran itself, addressed by leading mullahs and by former President Rafsanjani, where the more terse version (Marg bar Esrail�"Death to Israel") is chanted as a matter of routine; sometimes as an applause line to an especially deft clerical thrust.
No, what worries me more about Ahmadinejad is his devout belief in the return of the "occulted" or 12th imam and his related belief that, when he himself spoke recently at the United Nations, the whole scene was suffused with a sublime green light that held all his audience in a state of suspended animation. This uncultured jerk is, of course, only a puppet figure with no real power, but this choice of puppet by the theocracy is unsettling in itself. So is Iran's complete lack of embarrassment at being caught, time and again, with nuclear enrichment facilities that have never been declared to the inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency.
However, words and details and nuances do matter in all this, so I was not surprised to see professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan denying that Ahmadinejad, or indeed Khomeini, had ever made this call for the removal of Israel from the map. Cole is a minor nuisance on the fringes of the academic Muslim apologist community. At one point, there was a danger that he would become a go-to person for quotes in New York Times articles (a sort of Shiite fellow-traveling version of Norman Ornstein, if such an alarming phenomenon can be imagined), but this crisis appears to have passed.
Cole continues to present himself as an expert on Shiism and on the Persian, Arabic, and Urdu tongues. Let us see how his claim vindicates itself in practice. Here is what he wrote on the "Gulf 2000" e-mail chat-list on April 22:
It bears repeating as long as the accusation is made. Ahmadinejad did not "threaten" to "wipe Israel off the map." I'm not sure there is even such an idiom in Persian. He quoted Khomeini to the effect that "the Occupation regime must end" (ehtelal bayad az bayn berad). And, no, it is not the same thing. It is about what sort of regime people live under, not whether they exist at all. Ariel Sharon, after all, made the Occupation regime in Gaza end.
There are two separate but related matters here. For a start, let us look at the now-famous speech that Ahmadinejad actually gave at the Interior Ministry on Oct. 26, 2005. (I am using the translation made by Nazila Fathi of the New York Times Tehran bureau, whose Persian is probably the equal of Professor Cole's.) The relevant portions read:
Our dear Imam [Khomeini] said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. � Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. � For over fifty years the world oppressor tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime, and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it.
Ahmadinejad then denounced the recent Israeli-Palestinian negotiations over Gaza as a sellout and added, "If we get through this brief period successfully, the path of eliminating the occupying regime will be easy and down-hill."
Not even Professor Cole will dispute that, in the above passages, the term "occupying regime" means Israel and the term "world oppressor" stands for the United States. (The title of the conference, incidentally, was The World Without Zionism.) In fact, Khomeini's injunctions are referred to twice. Quite possibly, "wiped off the map" is slightly too free a translation of what he originally said, and what it is mandatory for his followers to repeat. So, I give it below, in Persian and in English, and let you be the judge:
Esrail ghiyam-e mossalahaane bar zed-e mamaalek-e eslami nemoodeh ast va bar doval va mamaalek-eeslami ghal-o-gham aan lazem ast.
My source here is none other than a volume published by the Institute for Imam Khomeini. Here is the translation:
Israel has declared armed struggle against Islamic countries and its destruction is a must for all governments and nations of Islam.
This is especially important, and is also the reason for the wide currency given to the statement: It is making something into a matter of religious duty. The term "ghal-o-gham" is an extremely strong and unambivalent one, of which a close equivalent rendering would be "annihilate."
Professor Cole has completely missed or omitted the first reference in last October's speech, skipped to the second one, and flatly misunderstood the third. (The fourth one, about "eliminating the occupying regime," I would say speaks for itself.) He evidently thinks that by "occupation," Khomeini and Ahmadinejad were referring to the Israeli seizure of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. But if this were true, it would not have been going on for "more than fifty years" now, would it? The 50th anniversary of 1967 falls in 2017, which is a while off. What could be clearer than that "occupation regime" is a direct reference to Israel itself?
One might have thought that, if the map-wiping charge were to have been inaccurate or unfair, Ahmadinejad would have denied it. But he presumably knew what he had said and had meant to say. In any case, he has an apologist to do what he does not choose to do for himself. But this apologist, who affects such expertise in Persian, cannot decipher the plain meaning of a celebrated statement and is, furthermore, in need of a remedial course in English.
Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair. His most recent book is Thomas Jefferson: Author of America. |
Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2140947/ |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| Wow you made a great point there. popularly elected....so was Hitler. |
The irony here is that jinju would have voted for him.
And BJWD, I don't think you read Big_Bird's posts carefully enough. Trying to get a clear view of a situation isn't the same as hating a nation, and accusing her of hating Israel just sounds stupid. I do have to wonder how much you actually understand of the situation. |
I don't think you've read her posts at all if that's what you think. Go back a few months and you can find some very solid examples of what BJWD and jinju are talking about. And it is not only those two and myself that can point this out. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
(ahmedinejad)
The man is a nincompoop who has been given far more coverage than he deserves. |
Oh dear, it looks like we have a racist. Big bird is it "normal" for you to "insult" the leaders of other nations because they are muslims? |
Surely you jest, Julius  |
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madcap
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Gangneung, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Nincompoop is a racial slur?
I wouldn't say that the guy is a genious, but he's certainly not an idiot. He and his government see an angle and they are trying to exploit it for all they are worth. It's an old, old game called politics. They know that the only way they are going to be taken seriously is if they have a bargaining chip that hold some real political capital. Ahmedinejad strengthens his own position in the eyes of his his supporters by standing up to the West and he makes the West take him seriously by creating a threat. Will much come of it? I think not. If they do finally test an atomic bomb they will be offered a larger, more enticing package of incentives to give up their program. That's all they really want. To be treated like equals instead of some backwater, knuckle-dragging heathens like we treat them now. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| madcap wrote: |
Nincompoop is a racial slur?
I. To be treated like equals instead of some backwater, knuckle-dragging heathens like we treat them now. |
Then they should act like our equals instead of backwater, knuckle-draggers. Equals don't threaten to wipe other nations off the map. Equals don't go around kidnapping each other's people. In short equals don't act like Iran. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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big bird quite simply supports Iran's hitleresque president and she is doing a lot of dancing around what is the essence of what was said: the state of Israel is, according to president Ahmallibabba is to disappear. Howeve that happens, is of little importance. What is important is the Iranian goal of wiping the word Israel off the map.
Now, to me, defending such people is unimaginable. To people like big bird, people like Ahmaallibabba and Chavez are heros. Big bird, just so you people siding with her, has defended sharia law, she has defended backwards muslim cultures that enslave women. Basically, pick any *beep* on the planet, from Chacez to Castro, to Allibabba in Tehran and big bird will side with them.
Why? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Anyways, it is just iranian government line.
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"All of Palestine is plundered. There is no difference between the '48 territories and the '67 territories. I ask the Muslims, why are you fighting over the Jordan River when all of Palestine is plundered?" Muslims Should Annihilate Israel
"Israel's danger is not limited to Palestine� It spreads to the whole region. Imam Khomeini said: 'The goal of this virus [Israel] that was planted in the heart of the Islamic world, is not only to annihilate the Arab nation� The danger is to the whole Middle East� and the solution is in annihilating the virus. There is no other treatment� The Islamic states and the Muslims should initiate the annihilation of this den of corruption [Israel] in every possible way� |
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP38702 |
He talks like Hitler...no wonder big bird defends him. And no wonder the leftist scum brigade is right there with her. |
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madcap
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Gangneung, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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TheUrbanMyth wrote:
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| Then they should act like our equals instead of backwater, knuckle-draggers. Equals don't threaten to wipe other nations off the map. Equals don't go around kidnapping each other's people. In short equals don't act like Iran. |
You're right. We are a beacon of peace in the world.
Yahoo News
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ABOARD THE USS JOHN C. STENNIS - The United States wrapped up a massive military exercise in the Persian Gulf Wednesday, putting on a show of strength for Iran... On Wednesday, the U.S. Navy wrapped up its largest show of force in the Gulf since the 2003 invasion of Iraq, with 15 ships, 125 aircraft and 13,000 sailors in an exercise a few dozen miles off Iran's coast.
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As for not kidnapping people...
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Six Iranian officials, whom Tehran claims were diplomats, were arrested in the northern Iraqi city of Irbil in January in a raid by the U.S. Army. Washington claims they belong to the Quds Force of the elite Revolutionary Guard Corps that specializes in foreign missions.
A seventh, former Deputy Defense Minister Alireza Askari, a veteran of the Revolutionary Guard, disappeared in recent months. He was last seen in Istanbul last month.
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All I'm saying is we serve our interests just like they serve their own. Don't even try and say that we couldn't find a peaceful solution to this whole mess through some give and take on both sides of the fence. The major problem, though, is a power struggle in the region. We control the middle east through our use of Israel as a mercenary state. Iran (and most of the rest of the ME for that matter) is upset that the economies and major political decisions of their own regions are dictated to them by rich Westerners liveing thousands of miles away who don't care about the rights and self determination of a people they believe to be subservient to their interests. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| We control the middle east through our use of Israel as a mercenary state. |
Explain what you mean by "control". Be clear.
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Iran is upset that the economies and major political decisions of their own regions are dictated to them by rich Westerners liveing thousands of miles away |
Iran has no domestic economic policy? Explain what you mean. Avoid platitudes. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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madcap. I asked you a question. Answer.
I'll start you off. Is it "control" when the outcome isn't that which was intended? Do I control the TV if the remote is broken and mixes up the numbers? |
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