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archer904
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:44 am Post subject: Foreign Teachers Association |
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This idea came up in another thread, and I wanted to repost it here for input:
It is against the law for foreigners to form a union, but not against the law to form an association. A union and an association operate in fundamentally different ways. A union collectively represents its individual members, engages in collective bargaining agreements, initiates lawsuits on behalf of workers, organizes strikes, and generally wields political power because of the threat of strikes (to keep it simple).
An association can do none of those things. An association represents the industry as a whole. It does not act (as a group) on behalf of individual members, and exists more to provide services to its members.
I think the time is right for us to form a national association with initial chapters in Seoul, Daegu, and Busan. The question becomes, "What services can an association provide me that I'd be interested in?" Imagine you get into legal trouble...we could provide you access to a lawyer. Imagine you are wrongfully terminated and kicked out of your apartment...we could provide members a place to stay (for a short time), an interpreter to talk to the labor board (if necessary), and legal consultation. More benefits are outlined below in the paragraph I lifted from the original thread:
The association will collect nominal dues from members. For the dues members pay, the association has to provide services to members that they will find valuable enough to pay dues for. Such services could include: (1) Access to a lawyer that will provide legal advice, tell you what your rights are, possibly represent you in small matters (like getting the norebang owner to drop the charges when you broke his coffee table while breakdancing) and if necessary, refer you to counsel that can represent you (or possibly send a letter on your behalf, or send a letter representing the association...I still have to check out what we can and can't do on this) (2) Provide a "rescue network" so that if you are fired and kicked out of your apartment, you will still have a place to sleep at night, at least for a while, (3) Provide access to an association wiki, written by our lawyer, that has tons of information about how your employer should deal with you (and advice about how to deal with them) (4) Provide data about which schools pay how much (5) Maintain their own file of hagwan and recruiter complaints, sort of like a Better Business Bureau (6) Represent foreign English teachers to the Korean government and media, so that our problems and issues are known to others, (7) Alert members on changes to laws that may affect their employment.
I'm sure we can come up with more benefits. That's just a start.
I have a lot of experience with national associations, being the Executive Director of one right now. If there is interest, I'd like to set up a board of directors and start planning out the organization.
What does everyone think? |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| good luck |
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babtangee
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Not gonna work. People don't usually stick around long enough to feel the need to pay for such protection. Those who do stick around usually have F2/4's and/or can take care of themselves. It's a great idea, but people are pretty stingy around here.
How about offering these services for a fee? I'm sure the teachers who find themselves in a bind could sure use them. Though they may not have the cash to pay at that point... hmmm... bet they'll wish they paid there duties then, huh...? ha ha. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| I'll take care of the money. I nominate myself to be the treasurer of the association. |
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archer904
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| babtangee wrote: |
| Not gonna work. People don't usually stick around long enough to feel the need to pay for such protection. Those who do stick around usually have F2/4's and/or can take care of themselves. It's a great idea, but people are pretty stingy around here. |
I think that if you market to incoming newbs that are worried about getting jacked on their first contract, it could work. Annual dues of $50 and 100 members in each of the big 3 cities is $15,000, and that would buy a lot of legal help, among other things. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| archer904 wrote: |
| babtangee wrote: |
| Not gonna work. People don't usually stick around long enough to feel the need to pay for such protection. Those who do stick around usually have F2/4's and/or can take care of themselves. It's a great idea, but people are pretty stingy around here. |
I think that if you market to incoming newbs that are worried about getting jacked on their first contract, it could work. Annual dues of $50 and 100 members in each of the big 3 cities is $15,000, and that would buy a lot of legal help, among other things. |
I think it's a good idea. I'm willing to pay $50-$100 annual due. |
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archer904
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| I think it's a good idea. I'm willing to pay $50-$100 annual due. |
I'd be willing to pay it too. Would you be willing to serve on the board? It would be all-volunteer, but you'd get a chance to make policy decisions as we put the organization together...
I'm not offering you a slot (it isn't mine to offer), but I invite all those interested (especially the longer term expats) to consider serving on the board. The organization I currently run (The Game Publishers Association) has Board of Directors' business conducted entirely through email. Very convenient. I'd guess it takes about 2 hours a week of time (total) for regular board members. Me, a bit more, since I run it. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| This has already been done. It lasted about six months and then died a quiet death as more and more of it members moved back home. In order to keep this association running the founding members must live here permanantly. Once you move back home and find a job, you are usually too busy to offer a lot of advice..plus you will be left out of the loop when it comes to law changes. And since this association wll have no legal standing, it can't offer anything that Dave's board or other sites can't. |
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archer904
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| This has already been done. It lasted about six months and then died a quiet death as more and more of it members moved back home. |
Then it wasn't done right. It didn't have leadership that could think ahead. You have to appoint someone to be in charge of outreach and membership.
| The_Conservative wrote: |
| And since this association wll have no legal standing, it can't offer anything that Dave's board or other sites can't. |
The proposed membership services are a ton more than Dave's board or other sites can offer. |
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butlerian
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| archer904 wrote: |
| The_Conservative wrote: |
| This has already been done. It lasted about six months and then died a quiet death as more and more of it members moved back home. |
Then it wasn't done right. It didn't have leadership that could think ahead. You have to appoint someone to be in charge of outreach and membership.
| The_Conservative wrote: |
| And since this association wll have no legal standing, it can't offer anything that Dave's board or other sites can't. |
The proposed membership services are a ton more than Dave's board or other sites can offer. |
You have my support. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: |
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archer...did you read why it died: people moved away.
For this to work you need minimally stable leadership. You also need leadership that understands Korean law and Korean business culture. That leadership has to know how to deal with Korean bureaucracy on a non-confrontational way and make demands that are warranted.
Also, if you start collecting dues you need to make sure the leadership can work in such an official association while on their work-visas. People with F2 visas could be in such a position but as pointed out, many have zero interest in such an association.
A support group type of thing is a good idea and it exists in many forms already, ableit on a smaller scale.
50-100 bucks in annual dues is not a big sum but who will manage the funds? Who would you trust to manage these funds ethically?
Who do you approach demands made by teachers who work at very different jobs (Hakwons, Public Schools, Universities, Companies) each with different rules and regulations?
How do you manage membership for teachers who really are here for a 1-2 year money blitz?
How do you account for the yahoos who will inevitably join that association and hurt the image of it with their moronic behaviour?
What about those who teach illegally (privates) on their E-2 visas? Do they get to be members as well? That would be real interesting when immigration pokes its head in there and finds some of the members are violating their visas....
Will this association check for people with fake credentials (committing fraud) adhering to it?
Who will be in charge of finding the proper permits to operate this association?
Will the leadership include Koreans or people who are fluent in Korea and with Korean labour rules?
Who will hand out the adive when needed? How will this advice centre be operated? Who will pay for the cost (phones, website, email....). Who will answer? Who will donate their time to answer questions?
How will such an association be able to help except by pointing people in the right direction?
You cannot legally represent anyone if you are not a legal organisation...who will find lawyers if needed...?
The idea has great merit but these questions all need to be seriously considered unless you want to fall flat on your face. |
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babtangee
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
archer...did you read why it died: people moved away.
For this to work you need minimally stable leadership. You also need leadership that understands Korean law and Korean business culture. That leadership has to know how to deal with Korean bureaucracy on a non-confrontational way and make demands that are warranted.
Also, if you start collecting dues you need to make sure the leadership can work in such an official association while on their work-visas. People with F2 visas could be in such a position but as pointed out, many have zero interest in such an association.
A support group type of thing is a good idea and it exists in many forms already, ableit on a smaller scale.
50-100 bucks in annual dues is not a big sum but who will manage the funds? Who would you trust to manage these funds ethically?
Who do you approach demands made by teachers who work at very different jobs (Hakwons, Public Schools, Universities, Companies) each with different rules and regulations?
How do you manage membership for teachers who really are here for a 1-2 year money blitz?
How do you account for the yahoos who will inevitably join that association and hurt the image of it with their moronic behaviour?
What about those who teach illegally (privates) on their E-2 visas? Do they get to be members as well? That would be real interesting when immigration pokes its head in there and finds some of the members are violating their visas....
Will this association check for people with fake credentials (committing fraud) adhering to it?
Who will be in charge of finding the proper permits to operate this association?
Will the leadership include Koreans or people who are fluent in Korea and with Korean labour rules?
Who will hand out the adive when needed? How will this advice centre be operated? Who will pay for the cost (phones, website, email....). Who will answer? Who will donate their time to answer questions?
How will such an association be able to help except by pointing people in the right direction?
You cannot legally represent anyone if you are not a legal organisation...who will find lawyers if needed...?
The idea has great merit but these questions all need to be seriously considered unless you want to fall flat on your face. |
Thank you, Mr. Negativity. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| babtangee wrote: |
| Homer wrote: |
archer...did you read why it died: people moved away.
For this to work you need minimally stable leadership. You also need leadership that understands Korean law and Korean business culture. That leadership has to know how to deal with Korean bureaucracy on a non-confrontational way and make demands that are warranted.
Also, if you start collecting dues you need to make sure the leadership can work in such an official association while on their work-visas. People with F2 visas could be in such a position but as pointed out, many have zero interest in such an association.
A support group type of thing is a good idea and it exists in many forms already, ableit on a smaller scale.
50-100 bucks in annual dues is not a big sum but who will manage the funds? Who would you trust to manage these funds ethically?
Who do you approach demands made by teachers who work at very different jobs (Hakwons, Public Schools, Universities, Companies) each with different rules and regulations?
How do you manage membership for teachers who really are here for a 1-2 year money blitz?
How do you account for the yahoos who will inevitably join that association and hurt the image of it with their moronic behaviour?
What about those who teach illegally (privates) on their E-2 visas? Do they get to be members as well? That would be real interesting when immigration pokes its head in there and finds some of the members are violating their visas....
Will this association check for people with fake credentials (committing fraud) adhering to it?
Who will be in charge of finding the proper permits to operate this association?
Will the leadership include Koreans or people who are fluent in Korea and with Korean labour rules?
Who will hand out the adive when needed? How will this advice centre be operated? Who will pay for the cost (phones, website, email....). Who will answer? Who will donate their time to answer questions?
How will such an association be able to help except by pointing people in the right direction?
You cannot legally represent anyone if you are not a legal organisation...who will find lawyers if needed...?
The idea has great merit but these questions all need to be seriously considered unless you want to fall flat on your face. |
Thank you, Mr. Negativity. |
Right then, let's just think happy positive thoughts and by all means let's not think of any potential problems that could stop this association before it gets off the ground. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Its a good idea. I'd pay an annual due for the peace of mind of knowing I have the assistance of fluent english speakers and an english speaking lawyer who specialises in such cases.
It would mostly be subscribed to by long termers- however they're the ones most likely to have good enough jobs already and not get into all that trouble anyhow.
Still, it would be a good start and could grow into something quite useful. Press releases translated into korean would help our situation here for one thing. And so on. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
Its a good idea. I'd pay an annual due for the peace of mind of knowing I have the assistance of fluent english speakers and an english speaking lawyer who specialises in such cases.
It would mostly be subscribed to by long termers- however they're the ones most likely to have good enough jobs already and not get into all that trouble anyhow.
Still, it would be a good start and could grow into something quite useful. Press releases translated into korean would help our situation here for one thing. And so on. |
Who would pay this lawyer?
Let's say 100 people are willing to pay dues (I think that's a large number...but let's go with it) So that's about 5000 dollars annually.
Let's say the lawyer's halfway compentent and charges about $50 dollars a hour for his services (if he can speak English that's not unreasonable at all). Let's say that about ten people require his services because of crooked hakwon owners. So that's about ten hours per person before the money runs out. If these cases have not been resolved by then what happens?
I also have to disagree about long-termers. Why would they have any interest? The majority are married with F-2 visas and can just walk out of a bad job when they wish. They certainly wouldn't need to pay for any services this association can offer. |
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