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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: Chavez to ban alcohol during Easter |
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Wow. I thought Bush was a religious nut. This guy (Chavez) is just incredible.
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CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - For beer and whiskey-loving Venezuelans, Easter this year won't be an alcohol-soaked drinking fest.
President Hugo Chavez has imposed a ban on alcohol sales during Holy Week in an attempt to reduce accidents and crimes, prompting a run on liquor stores.
The decree prohibits alcohol sales on Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Easter Sunday next week. A more limited ban, restricting sales to between 10 a.m. and 5 p.m., including at restaurants and bars, went into effect Friday and will last through April 9.
The sudden, unprecedented measure confused many Venezuelans who raced to stash up before Friday, thinking that would be their last chance to buy for more than a week. |
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2007/03/31/3880337-ap.html
Weird. All totalitarian systems go after the same things.. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Chavez to ban alcohol during Easter |
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| Welcome to the world of blue laws. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Chavez is giving Venezuela back to the poor!, BJWD. Don't you see, authoritarianism works as long as it promises to fulfill an ideology with which you agree! |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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I don't really care one way or another about Chavez. However, I would like to draw attention to the selective outrage underlying this thread.
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A dry county is one whose government forbids the sale of alcoholic beverages in some form. There are hundreds of dry counties across the United States. About 18,000,000 people live in the 10% of the area of the US that is dry.
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Today, almost one-half of the counties in Mississippi are dry with their own prohibition against the production, advertising, sale, distribution, or transportation of alcoholic beverages within their boundaries. It is even illegal to bring alcohol through a dry county in Mississippi while traveling across the country in the process of, for example, moving a personal wine or spirits collection to one's new residence
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http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/1140551076.html |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| And I would like to point out the selective outrage of OTOH's selective outrage as Saudi Arabia is a dry country. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| I don't believe either BJWD or I were holding Mississippi up as an example. Both of our positions on the drug war are libertarian ones, we disagree with it. But the fact is that what Chavez is doing is a Current Event, whereas what was established in certain counties in Mississippi have been that way for a long time. Hence the term that huffdaddy used, blue law. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:15 am Post subject: |
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From one perspective, Chavez is not acting any more authoritarian/paternalistic than most other Latin American and Caribbean states. Chile, for example, forces everyone to stop drinking and go home early the night before any election, mobilizes the armed forces to secure/patrol the polling sites, and mandates that everyone must take the day off work or school and vote -- or risk penalties. (And still many evade.) In any case, this is culturally normal for this traditionally authoritarian/paternalistic region.
But from another perspective, the comparative perspective that On the Other Hand presents, if multiple American counties -- that is, apparently pious local govts -- decide "to go dry," then we can at least say that this is far more democratic than a Caribbean dictator randomly decreeing and imposing it from the national capital just because it suits him to do so this Easter...
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:29 am; edited 6 times in total |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Chile, for example, forces everyone to stop drinking and go home before any election, |
Liquor isn't sold in Argentina on election day as well. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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And I would like to point out the selective outrage of OTOH's selective outrage as Saudi Arabia is a dry country.
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How is there selective outrage on my part? I didn't start this thread criticizing Saudi Arabia as a "totalitarian" country on the basis of their liquor laws. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| I don't believe either BJWD or I were holding Mississippi up as an example. Both of our positions on the drug war are libertarian ones, we disagree with it. But the fact is that what Chavez is doing is a Current Event, whereas what was established in certain counties in Mississippi have been that way for a long time. |
Yes, but BJWD said that Venezuela has a totalitarian system, as exemplied by their outlawing of liquor for a few days a year before Easter. And you appeared to agree with him. So I'm just wondering if you consider those Mississipi counties to be totalitarian as well. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| I don't believe either BJWD or I were holding Mississippi up as an example. Both of our positions on the drug war are libertarian ones, we disagree with it. But the fact is that what Chavez is doing is a Current Event, whereas what was established in certain counties in Mississippi have been that way for a long time. |
Yes, but BJWD said that Venezuela has a totalitarian system, as exemplied by their outlawing of liquor for a few days a year before Easter. And you appeared to agree with him. So I'm just wondering if you consider those Mississipi counties to be totalitarian as well. |
No, not exemplified by, but accompanied by. I said "all totalitarian systems go after the same things", meaning that intoxication is a favorite target of government thugs. The totalitairn urges exist before the attacks on intoxication.
But about Mississippi. If the Governor ruled by edict and was confiscating property in addition to nationalizing major industries (and media etc etc) then it would be totalitarian, regardless of if you could get booze or not.
But I don't buy the whole "land of the free" garbage. A free nation lets gays marry, lets me buy pot/e/hash and most certainly does not have a patriot act. A free nation would leave her citizens alone, and the USA does not do that (though, she does do it better than the vast majority). |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Ecuador also forbids alcohol for all of election weekend. Voting is mandatory in Ecuador, if you don't vote then you can't do bank transactions or travel overseas.
I actually support the mandatory voting law. It seems anti-democratic at first, but as long as you have the option of voting "none of the above", I don't think it's against democratic principles. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
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| I don't believe either BJWD or I were holding Mississippi up as an example. Both of our positions on the drug war are libertarian ones, we disagree with it. But the fact is that what Chavez is doing is a Current Event, whereas what was established in certain counties in Mississippi have been that way for a long time. |
Yes, but BJWD said that Venezuela has a totalitarian system, as exemplied by their outlawing of liquor for a few days a year before Easter. And you appeared to agree with him. So I'm just wondering if you consider those Mississipi counties to be totalitarian as well. |
No, not exemplified by, but accompanied by. I said "all totalitarian systems go after the same things", meaning that intoxication is a favorite target of government thugs. The totalitairn urges exist before the attacks on intoxication.
But about Mississippi. If the Governor ruled by edict and was confiscating property in addition to nationalizing major industries (and media etc etc) then it would be totalitarian, regardless of if you could get booze or not.
But I don't buy the whole "land of the free" garbage. A free nation lets gays marry, lets me buy pot/e/hash and most certainly does not have a patriot act. A free nation would leave her citizens alone, and the USA does not do that (though, she does do it better than the vast majority). |
First of all. Chavez is a petty tyrant who is bringing Venezuela to its knees. I was using this Current Event to express this opinion once again, because it pleases me to do so. It really has little to do with 'dry counties' in Mississippi.
Second of all, I would have linked to 'blue laws' in Wiki, except that I have to change over to a proxy server to do so. I live in Beijing so Wikipedia is blocked as is the BBC. Blue laws are very old laws passed down from Puritan times. At least thats what I suspect the origin of these Mississippi counties' laws are. I'm against blue laws, obviously, but many are over a 100 years old. Its different from the Chavez mess, because he is making a new law using his dictortarial powers. They're not even situations that similar.
I agree with what BJWD said about America.
I don't have to qualify my perfectly natural and understandable disdain for Chavez based on some arcane wierdness in Mississippi. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
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I don't have to qualify my perfectly natural and understandable disdain for Chavez based on some arcane wierdness in Mississippi.
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Well Kuros, tell me this. Suppose some European leftist, from a country that does not have Miranda-style rights, makes the following statement...
LEFTIST: I think it's quite typical of the totalitarian mentality afoot in the USA today that Bush is trying to limit the constitutional rights of some criminal suspects.
Do you think that it would be valid for an American to point out that the European's homeland does the exact same thing as Bush is doing?
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| Its different from the Chavez mess, because he is making a new law using his dictortarial powers. |
Yes, but you could say that about ANY law passed by Chavez from here on in. If Chavez raises the price of stamps, it's a "new law using his dictatorial powers." But no one would get all that excited about that, since raising the price of stamps is something that we consider it valid for governments, dictatoriaral or otherwise, to do. What I'm saying is that, at least by the standards of the leading industrial democracy in the world, regulating the sale of liquor is also considered a valid thing for governments to do.
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| I'm against blue laws, obviously, but many are over a 100 years old. |
I don't see the point here. Unless you can show me that the laws are unenforced, I don't think it matters how long they've been on the books. It's illegal to buy liquor in those counties. End of story. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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I don't have to qualify my perfectly natural and understandable disdain for Chavez based on some arcane wierdness in Mississippi.
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Well Kuros, tell me this. Suppose some European leftist, from a country that does not have Miranda-style rights, makes the following statement...
LEFTIST: I think it's quite typical of the totalitarian mentality afoot in the USA today that Bush is trying to limit the constitutional rights of some criminal suspects.
Do you think that it would be valid for an American to point out that the European's homeland does the exact same thing as Bush is doing? |
Oh, absolutely. But, of course, you realize that for your analogy to be perfectly applicable, the entire country would have to be without Miranda rights. There are a few dry counties in Mississippi. Mississippi comprises one of fifty states in the US. And not even that whole state is dry.
I must say, I am impressed by your concern for Mississippi, however.
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| Its different from the Chavez mess, because he is making a new law using his dictortarial powers. |
Yes, but you could say that about ANY law passed by Chavez from here on in. If Chavez raises the price of stamps, it's a "new law using his dictatorial powers." But no one would get all that excited about that, since raising the price of stamps is something that we consider it valid for governments, dictatoriaral or otherwise, to do. What I'm saying is that, at least by the standards of the leading industrial democracy in the world, regulating the sale of liquor is also considered a valid thing for governments to do. |
It's funny you should mention stamps. You should know I'm a New Englander. I don't take raising the price of stamps by a tyrant too kindly. 
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| I'm against blue laws, obviously, but many are over a 100 years old. |
I don't see the point here. Unless you can show me that the laws are unenforced, I don't think it matters how long they've been on the books. It's illegal to buy liquor in those counties. End of story. |
There is a process in the US to overcome this. It would have to go through the courts. The problem with Chavez's edict is that the courts are compromised. Civil disobedience might work in Mississippi to change the system. In Chavez's Venezuela not so much.
If this argument is going to come down to whether I have faith in the system of America versus whether or not I have faith in Chavez's dictatorship, I welcome it. I have faith in the American system. I do not have faith in Chavez. I mean, as you rightly seem to understand, its not really about the liquor entirely.
If you want to come out and call me a hypocrite for my position, feel free.
Alternately, if you want to openly state your opinion on what Chavez is doing go ahead. It seems to me you do not think what he is doing is a big deal. |
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