Korean Job Discussion Forums

[xingyiman]

[gdnchg]

My point exactly.....7 bucks an hour is a drop in bucket when compared against the millions of Won that an ESL teacher can potentially rake in. Sheesh, 7 bucks an hour woundn't even cover my monthly gas bills for my car. I think I'm fortunate that I live in a city that's considered the economic engine of the country I live in......jobs are plentiful.

But many are not as fortunate as I, and must face with the realities of living in Small town USA or barren rocks such as PEI, New Brunswick, Saskatchewan......where good paying jobs are hard to come by.
It comes down to money, and that is why all of you are in Korea....cuz money talks. And I think that given a choice, most of you would rather not be in Korea and be back home if you had the same earning power...and were able to get girlfriends from your home countries.

[PRagic]

Myself and a good number of people I know that have been here for quite some time either have worked corporate America, or turned down job offers. For me, I know that living in the States would be boring, pure and simple. When I was in my 20s, sure, I thought about making the move back. In my 30s, I turned down corporate offers and opportunities with the government. Thing is, I knew people that had 'worked their way up' and had 'made it', and the concept had lost its luster. I found ways to improve myself here and to make it, and I have been pretty satisfied. Ok, and truth be told, we have more coin! Find what you like to do and get good at it. The rest will take care of itself.

[gdnchg]

Like I said it's all about the money....
But, for some reason.....I highly doubt that any corporation would offer you a 'real corporate job' coming back home straight from ESL teaching. Clerical work or call centre positons are not real corporate jobs in my opinion.....ESL working experience is useless back home.

[PRagic]

I do become concerned when I come accross such negative opinions of teachers. Some, if not all, are working their way up to better things. Some have just found a level of professional comfort, and are enjoying life. Why there persists such a stigmatism against teachers, I will never know. Perhaps it is because the ESL market here supports transient labour. With so many entry level jobs available, jobs that do not provide any long term potential, for people looking to do a short term adventure and pay off some debt, maybe this is what happens. People come in, get crap jobs in ESL, and then assume that these jobs are as good as they get; anyone working in the industry, ipso facto, must not have much going for them. Not the case.

Like I said, it ISN'T all about the money. I wanted to get a Ph.D., and my wife is Korean...being here works. I have the education, experience and connections, and, yes, I did have offers. Never assume.

I do know several people that did make the move back. One works for DELL, one for a large marketing firm, and one in PR with the biggest bank in Canada, for example. They are all quite happy, but, then again, living overseas wasn't for them.

I also know some professional ESL educators here in Korea that are doing quite well by themselves, both in terms of 'life', and, yes, financially. MOST worked corporate jobs for years before making the move over to education. Then again, I know a good handful of people that transitioned to corporate land here in Korea after starting out as ESL teachers. They like living here, and the jobs they have are fulfilling.

Isn't it always about the money? That's not the point. Why conjecture that a return to one's country of origin would mean a fry cook job? Why make blanket assumptions; they don't work. You did say that this is the case after a certain number of years, which was spot on. Again, not a blanket truth. It would seem that the underlying assumption is that people don't want to be involved in education in the first place, and that many are 'stuck' in the market here because of money. For those people, then, yes, I agree with you. They should depart and get started on their corporate ladder climb as soon as possible.

[gdnchg]

I concur that my assumptions can be construed as sweeping generalizations. My objective wasn't to offend, but rather to be as objective as possible.
I'm not saying that my theory applies to all foreign english teachers and I am
defintely not saying that all ESL teachers have nothing to return to back home....I concede that there are those who go back home and are able to find good corporate jobs....I know of a few.

I also agree that many are short termers who teach for a few years to pay off debts, and I acknowledge that there are even some who teach ESL for the love of teaching ESL...but this posting was about long timers, and as such my opinions were more directed towards this category of people. Maybe I can't figure out why a foreign male would want to settle in Korea and leave a country like Canada, considered the best country to live in the world with unlimited opportunities (if you apply yourself).
Korea is crowded, not as clean as Canada, the language is foreign.....so I figure it must be the money for the majority of you.

Maybe money isn't everything to you, but it means alot to most of you, and I would say it's big enough of a draw to keep you guys in Korea...I recently chatted with a caucasian canadian girl who just came back from Korea.....she said described alot of the male teachers as 'guys she or most girls back home would never go out with'...leads me to believe that most of you guys are there for the girls.

[storysinger81]

As a newbie to this forum, I have appreciated the resources that Dave's provides--it has eased many fears about the process of finding a job in Korea that won't drive me batty and getting a flavor for what I should expect once I pack up and move to the other side of the planet. I am very excited about my move and new job! That said...

I'm putting my neck out there on the chopping block (especially since I'm not even in Korea), but my (blatantly uneducated and inexperienced) guess for why women don't stay "lifers" has something to do with a lot of the attitudes expressed in this thread on prostitution:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=82700

I sincerely hope that the chest thumping ninnies sounding off about how great pro girls in K-land are in the minority and that the fine women and men (foreign and native) I would hope to meet when I come over there in August are ignoring these jerks or are just keeping their mouths shut out of fear of being called fat or gay or worse.

If the prevalence of misogynism and self-loathing in Korea, especially among the ESL teacher population where westerners should know better b/c they come from a culture that values understanding and tolerance, is represented by that thread (which to me represents the worst of what I've seen on this board), then I wouldn't want to stay for very long either.

*Remaining Hopeful*

[caniff]

[storysinger81]

I'll find something smaller. For now, it's gone.

[PRagic]

You seek to be as 'objective as possible'? Why would a male want to live in Korea when they could live in Canada? That's objective? I've recently talked with a (ONE) caucasian canadian girl who just came back from Korea, and she said... That's objective?

It's neither here nor there, but you seem unable to divorce yourself from your personal (and, in the case of your interview with ONE female canadian, limited) way of looking at the world. No worries. Canada is indeed lovely, and Canadian women are indeed a litmus for male attractiveness the world over. Everyone who stays in Korea will be unfortunate compared to those N. Americans that return to their sacred nesting grounds. Funny stuff.

To the exact opposite of your conjecture, somebody would have to pay me a LOT of money to get me to move BACK to N. America at this point in my life.

Oh, and I don't know many healthy N. American males who aren't there for the girls...no matter where they are! I could make more money working a boat or in the oil sands, but, then again, how are the BABES there? Hmmmm. Deal breaker.

[venus]

On the contrary to the view experessed that ESL experience is useless for jobs back home...

When I applied for jobs in London and eventually landed a plum job with the Civil Service, I found that my being able to show the independance neccessary to move abroad and negotiate a new culture and working conditions, establish a new social life, manage people (which is what you're doing in the classroom by the way, however succesfully yuo do it...) and develop the organisational abilities to create, implement and grade my own curriculum were very good selling points.

Hey I may have exaggerated it a little, but agian, employers expect you to, it demonstrates initiative.

Secondly, I don't want o be lumped in with all those people perceived as only having the choice of working in Korea or working at a supermarket.

Ridiculous. As a young man in my early thirties with a Ba Degree returning to the UK at least offers many oportunities for equally rewarding (financially) job opportunities in the private and public sector. Just for me they're a bit boring....

Peace.

[gdnchg]

Well at least you're honest about it and admit it...I'll give you that. All I'm saying is that if the stereo type of 'ugly white english teacher and half decent looking native k girl' is really true, I'm just trying to be scientific about it.

If these native k girls were gyopos, it severely diminishes the foreign esl male teacher from getting gfs in korea. I think it's fair to say not being to find girls in your home countries is a strong pull to come to Korea to date K-girls who just don't know better. What I'm saying is that in addition to the lure of money, the possibility of actually having a girl is an even stronger pull.
Why do you think male foreign esl teachers in Korea hate on gyopos so much? Because gyopos can see through and beyond the foreign esl teacher that native koreans can't. Now, I'm not saying it applies to all of you..but damn alot of you.

To reiterate, lumping all people in the category of not being able to go home and find good jobs was unfair and untrue....It applies the majority but not all of you...and the truth is that it is a universally accepted belief that teaching esl in Korea for the most part hold's back one's career at home. That can't be denied.

[venus]

[PRagic]

Well spoken. Plus, a good number of my closest friends are Kyopo. Don't understand that particular comment. Kyopos can 'see through' the N. American male better than other women? Come on.

The interesting thing about some Kyopo women, and, if I'm allowed to generalize as much as gdnchg on this, the ones from the west coast, is that they can maintain the worst of both cultures: They want to be taken seriously in work but they want the rich, established guy to pick up where daddy's coin leaves off. The younger Kyopo women, again a generalization, want to play off the best of both cultures while not really contributing any to either. Ouch. If 'seeing through' a N. American guy means taking the piss out of him because he can't afford your ideals at a particular age, then perhaps nothing is being lost in terms of dating opportunity. N. American guys have to make it, they aren't given it.

I highly doubt that anyone comes to Korea for the express purpose of landing dates with Korean girls. It happens, yes, but that's a byproduct of a move motivated by other things.

[gdnchg]

Dude, I'm generalizing and not all my generalizations apply to everyone. But I think that there is truth in my generalizations. I'm not saying it's wrong, or bad..I'm just being scientific about things and trying to draw conclusions based what people tell me and through my own personal opinions and thought processes.

Although I'll take it with a grain of salt, maybe automatice unemployment don't apply in the UK, but it sure applies in Canada and the US.

Dude, I'm not defending koreans at all, Koreans are far from perfect. I can cite may reasons why other Koreans piss me off, especially the young girls these days....I think alot of them deserve a good slap. But the comparison here is not about Koreans being a certain way to why foreign esl teachers go to korea, you're comparing two different things.