Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

60,000 Iranians chant "Death to Britian" at soccer
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemcgarrett wrote:
...the 1953 coup, which was assisted by the CIA.


Like you, I grow tired of Iranians and leftist, Western apologists citing the joint Anglo-American TP/AJAX operation to justify this...

Gopher wrote:
Seizing the American embassy in Tehran and holding its personnel hostage in 1979;

Supporting Hezbollah in the attack against the American Marines and embassy in 1983;

Their role in the Iran-Contra Scandal: supporting those who seized American hostages to trade for TOWs between 1981 and 1986ish;

Their role in supporting Hezbollah's seizing LtCol. William R. Higgins, torturting him at length and over time until hanging him "in retaliation" for something Israel supposedly did against Hezbollah, filming his death, and then dumping his body in a Beirut gutter 1988 through 1989;

Repeatedly defying the United Nations by continuing to covertly arm Hezbollah, and probably provide training, technical advice if not guidance, and intelligence information, thus illegally interfering in Lebanese internal affairs not to mention threatening Israeli security;

Instigating the Israeli-Hezbollah War by supporting Hezbollah's seizing Israeli soldiers, and then indiscriminately but deliberately firing missiles into civilian areas during the conflict in summer 2006;

And now this, seizing British sailors and marines and threatening "to try" them for Britain's alleged arrogance.


and this...?

Quote:
Iranian protesters mob Britain's embassy in Tehran, urging the government to try the 15 British sailors and marines Iran holds. Britain's defense secretary says the nations are in communication on the matter of the sailors. Ken Pollack, an analyst with the Brookings Institution, offers his insights in a conversation with Debbie Elliott...


All Things Considered

When is Terhan going to relax and move forward? Or should we start citing Xerxes...?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cerulean808



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemcgarrett

Quote:
You are referring to the 1953 coup, which was assisted by the CIA and a mistake. But that was half a century ago.


An attack on a sovereign state, instigating a coup, replacing a democracy with a dictatorship and giving it on going support for decades until it was destroyed. Sure just a mistake, 'oops sorry about that, didn't mean to, and it was all in the past so lets forget it.'

Only American rightwing extremists and apologist like you and Gopher would try to minimalise that ugly fact.

Quote:
much of the Shah's support came from moderates, from the middle class, and others without a vested interest in the chicanery of his regime...I'm not fan of the Shah or SAVAK...


Trust an extremist to try and argue that you can be a supporter of a torturer but not his torture and so try to pass yourself off as a moderate.

Quote:
but [the Shah] was no more extreme than the present regime, which has also run the economy into the ground.


Which is to say the current regime is no more extreme than the Western installed and supported previous regime. But it can be argued that it has a legitimacy that the Shah never had, not being a product of super power scheming and aggression.

So if the current regime is no more extreme than the previous Western installed and maintained regime why the foaming at the mouth fulminations from American rightwing fanatics?

Because the current regime is an obstacle and threat to American interests in the Middle East and the energy resources there.

Gopher

Quote:
Or should we start citing Xerxes...?


Is that the royal 'we' your using there Gopher? Or does stevie boy paw through Penguin classics as well. Your pomposity and intellectual pretense are a laugh.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yawarakaijin



Joined: 08 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know this man's politics all too well but it was an interesting read. He points out, very well, some of the hypocracies involved. I'm all for suppourting one's "home team" but it is disheartening that some are so incapable of seeing others points of view. I mean, if we are allowed to just say "screw it" we are the good guys so f#ck world opinion and the past, what prevents others from taking the exact same stand?

Bush, Iran & Selective Outrage
By Robert Parry
Consortuim News

Monday 02 April 2007

One of the least endearing features of Washington's political/media hierarchy is its propensity for selective outrage, like what is now coming from George W. Bush about the "inexcusable behavior" of the Iranian government in holding 15 British sailors whom Bush has labeled "hostages."

This is the same President Bush who often mocks the very idea that international law should apply to him; he's fond of the punch line: "International law? I better call my lawyer." But Bush becomes a pious defender of international law when it suits his geopolitical interests.

The major U.S. news media predictably follows along, getting into an arms-crossed harrumph over foreigners trampling on the inviolate principles of international law, the same rules that should never constrain U.S. actions.

So, when British sailors were captured on March 23 after they may or may not have crossed over an ill-defined demarcation between Iraqi and Iranian waters in the Persian Gulf, the assumption in the U.S. media was that Iran must be wrong. After all, Bush has listed Iran as a charter member of the "axis of evil"; its leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a notorious hothead; and everyone knows the Brits always play by the rules.

Of course, left outside this narrow frame of reference was the gross violation of international law - the bloody invasion of Iraq in 2003 - that put the Brits there in the first place.

Back then, international law was deemed little more than a nuisance getting in the way of what President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair wanted to do, i.e. conquer Iraq, install a compliant government, "privatize" its resources, and threaten other countries in the region to get in line.

Bush regarded the United Nations Charter and its ban on aggressive war as some goofy experiment in multilateralism. Blair actually knew better. Though he recognized that the Iraq invasion would violate this fundamental tenet of international law, Blair went along anyway.

From a longer-range historical context, there were other facts that would need forgetting if one wanted to get worked up into a moral frenzy. These include British colonial domination of both Iraq and Iran, and the CIA's role in overthrowing Iran's elected government in 1953 and reinstalling the brutal Shah of Iran on the Peacock Throne.

The combined interventions by the United Kingdom and the United States may have cost the lives of hundreds of thousands - possibly millions - of Iraqis and Iranians over the past century, but somehow Blair and Bush have positioned themselves as the innocent victims - at least as far as the Western press corps is concerned.

Iranian Detentions

So, in December and January, when Bush ordered raids against Iranian government offices inside Iraq and had five Iranian military officials detained indefinitely, there was barely a peep in the Western news media about violations of international law. Though the Iranians weren't formally charged, their plight elicited little sympathy.

There were expectations that the Iranians might be released on March 21, the start of the Iranian new year. After that date passed, some observers believe Iran may have opted for a tit-for-tat response in seizing the 15 British sailors.

If that is the case, the Iranians apparently don't understand the rules of the game: that President Bush has the unilateral right to do whatever he wants in the world and any reaction is unjustified, if not an invitation to an American military retaliation.

Escalating the war of words with Iran during a press conference at Camp David on March 31, Bush dismissed out of hand any possible "quid pro quos," such as a swap of the two sets of detainees.

"The Iranians must give back the hostages," Bush declared. "It's inexcusable behavior."

Regarding the captured British sailors, Blair and other U.K. officials have taken particular umbrage over videos released by Iran showing the sailors eating or being interviewed. This complaint references the principle of the Geneva Conventions against subjecting captured soldiers to public humiliation.

This same Geneva provision also was an issue - and another example of Western double standards - in the early days of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

In the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriya, five American soldiers were captured and their images were broadcast on Iraqi TV. Bush administration officials immediately denounced the brief televised interviews as a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

"It's illegal to do things to POWs that are humiliating to those prisoners," declared Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld's charge was repeated over and over by U.S. television networks as the American people were agitated to a fever pitch. But American TV reporters stayed silent about the obvious inconsistency between the outrage over the footage of the American soldiers and the earlier U.S. broadcasts of Iraqi prisoners of war.

The Iraqi POWs had been paraded before U.S. cameras as "proof" that Iraqi resistance was crumbling - and no U.S. journalist working for a major news outlet raised any question about a Geneva violation. Some Iraqi POWs were shown forced at gunpoint to kneel with their hands behind their heads as they were patted down by U.S. soldiers. Other Iraqis were bound by plastic handcuffs and shown with bags over their heads.

Beyond the hypocrisy implicit in the double standards, CNN and other U.S. cable networks apparently saw no irony in the fact that they presented these scenes of kneeling and bound Iraqis over the title, "Operation: Iraqi Freedom."

Guantanamo Bay

In protesting alleged Geneva violations by Iraq in March 2003, the U.S. news media also was silent about the fact that Bush had drawn worldwide condemnation for his decision to strip many POWs captured in Afghanistan of their Geneva Convention rights.

Bush ordered hundreds of these captives to be put in tiny outdoor cages at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The prisoners were shaved bald and forced to kneel with their eyes, ears and mouths covered to deprive them of their senses.

The shackled prisoners were filmed shuffling about in leg irons or being carried on stretchers to interrogation sessions. Their humiliation was broadcast widely.

In early 2002, U.S. allies, including some British officials, objected to the treatment of these prisoners and to Bush's unilateral assertion that they were "unlawful combatants" outside the protection of international law.

Legal experts noted that "unlawful combatant" was not even a category recognized by international law. The Geneva Conventions also required that detainees whose status was in any doubt must be accorded all enumerated rights until a "competent tribunal" was established to determine each individual prisoner's legal status.

Instead, Bush insisted that he had the sole right to declare which prisoners were POWs (with protections under the Geneva Conventions) and which ones were to be considered "unlawful combatants" (with no protections under the Geneva Conventions). Even Bush-designated POWs only received the Geneva rights that Bush saw fit to grant.

Human rights groups charged, too, that the U.S. treatment of some prisoners crossed the line into torture, which also is forbidden by international law. According to a variety of public accounts, prisoners have been subjected to water-boarding, a practice that simulates drowning, and to painful stress positions for long periods of time.

For its part, however, the Bush administration has denied engaging in torture and insists that all prisoners have been treated humanely.

Though these controversies about Bush's disdain for international law are well known to the U.S. news media, the context disappeared again when press interest turned to the captured British sailors in late March 2007.

Suddenly, it was a new day with Bush and Blair fully committed to international law. Even a relatively minor Geneva transgression, such as filming captives eating, became a justification for unrestrained outrage.

Without any acknowledgement about their own abrogation of international law, the British and U.S. governments lifted these principles from the gutter, dusted them off and put them on a pedestal. The grand human rights defender, George W. Bush, lectured other countries about "inexcusable behavior" - and no prominent Western journalist called him to account for his contradictions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good article. We need be reminded of this again and again....

Simply put, there are many in our own western nations who are terribly righteous WHEN IT SUITS THEIR PURPOSES....

Not just Bush but the lot of us, myself included. We fall into the trap of our own world view and never let go and see the real truth that floats out there between cultures.......

Also one more reason to slap the label of moron onto Bush. Like the guy at the basketball game who only believes in winning, damn the rules...

DD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerulean808 wrote:
Only American rightwing extremists and apologist[s] like you and Gopher would try to minimalise that ugly fact...


And only simplistic, wild-eyed radicals like you continue to insist on centering the entire universe on American foreign policy as the monocausal force driving anything and everything under the sun, dismissing and churlishly refusing to credit local conditions and actors with anything at all...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cerulean808



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher

Quote:
you continue to insist on centering the entire universe on American foreign policy as the monocausal force driving anything and everything under the sun


Where have I done that?

You need to face up to your government's activities abroad. Stop pretending your government is bringing light unto the nations.

The original poster does a Colonel Kurtz "Exterminate them all!!!!" anti Iranian rant, and I point out he's mad as a snake. Your response to your copatriot OP? Sweet FA. Instead you aim for me.

You're the extremist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerulean808 wrote:
You need to face up to your government's activities abroad.


Absolutely. But "my government's activities abroad" do not usually decisively account for events abroad, however.

You are entirely blind to this. You look at world affairs and see only American faults, shortcomings, and indeed, egregiousness. That is "where you have done that," by the way.

cerulean808 wrote:
Stop pretending your government is bringing light unto the nations.


Where have I ever accepted and/or repeated any Wilsonian Idealistic rhetoric on this board?

You are lashing out blindly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerulean808 wrote:
stevemcgarrett

Quote:
You are referring to the 1953 coup, which was assisted by the CIA and a mistake. But that was half a century ago.


An attack on a sovereign state, instigating a coup, replacing a democracy with a dictatorship and giving it on going support for decades until it was destroyed. Sure just a mistake, 'oops sorry about that, didn't mean to, and it was all in the past so lets forget it.'


Mossadeq's regime was not a stable democracy. The current Iranian regime may not be worse than the Shah's, but it is worth overthrowing if that were possible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Mossadeq's regime was not a stable democracy...


This is U.S.-centrism's central distortion: everyone else is guileless, innocent, passive, and utterly peaceful until wantonly-destructive American foreign policy arrives, that is...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cerulean808



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros ( With Gopher nodding approvingly)

Quote:
Mossadeq's regime was not a stable democracy.


So if a democracy doesn't qualify according to your government's definition of 'stable' it's ok to take a hand in its disposal. Kind of like having the old, arthritic, ailing and increasingly smelly family pet put down.

If it was 'unstable' why didn't Britain and the US make efforts to stabilise it? What was the source of instability? The effort to nationalise the oil, threatening powerful interests.

You have a similar mentality to the rapist and his supporters who argues the victim 'had a reputation', was the 'town bike', a 'c*ck teaser', really meant no when she said yes.

Gopher

Quote:
You look at world affairs and see only American faults, shortcomings, and indeed, egregiousness. That is "where you have done that," by the way.


Just an extension to your original baseless accusation.

You American rightwing nasties come onto a board with international membership, make shrill denunciations of and call for attacks against US official enemies.

And when surprise, surprise, no one else buys into it you complain bitterly about 'leftists' and angst ridden ask why all the 'Anti-Americanism' in the world.

In like Flint? More like Get Smart, Gopher.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry about 1953, a few years before the US saved Iran from the Russians.

At any rate it doesn't justify Irans terror or aggression. Or the anything Khomemi did.

and while the US made mistakes it was still right to fight the cold war.



Currelan

Quote:
Just an extension to your original baseless accusation.

You American rightwing nasties come onto a board with international membership, make shrill denunciations of and call for attacks against US official enemies.


Just remember there would be no war if Iran gave up their war, a war which you apologize for.


Quote:
And when surprise, surprise, no one else buys into it you complain bitterly about 'leftists' and angst ridden ask why all the 'Anti-Americanism' in the world.


The reason for anti Americanism mostly is that the world resents that there is a hyperpower.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cerulean808 wrote:
So if a democracy doesn't qualify according to your government's definition of 'stable' it's ok to take a hand in its disposal...?


Another perfect example of the U.S.-centric distortion. Played out a million times here -- insults and all.

You blame America and Britain for not ensuring Mossadeq's success. As if they have some kind of moral responsibility to collaborate with a foreign leader who vehemently opposes them.

And, in any case, you are mostly concerned with whether American policy was morally right. You want to ensure that we understand that the American govt behaved badly. That was not the issue that I addressed at all.

I was clarifying what the actual ground conditions were in Iran 1953. Because if you are going to start an allegation on "what the U.S. did to Iran" and you start it with such assumptions as "Mossadeq's regime was stable, morally good, and would have lived a natural life and led Iran to happiness," etc., then I think you ought to rethink nearly everything you think you know about just what happened here.

And, again, at the root of it all: we are not even talking about the same historical problem. You want to address morality, fault the guilty party, etc., and I want to clarify actual ground events.

If you want to make the case that "the American govt is bad," you ought to state your opinion and move on. But please do not present a badly muddled version of what actually happened on the ground in Iran "to help your case along."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another perfect example of the U.S.-centric distortion. Played out a million times here -- insults and all.

You blame America and Britain for not ensuring Mossadeq's success. As if they have some kind of moral responsibility to collaborate with a foreign leader who vehemently opposes them.



Speaking of distortions.


Mossediq was a populist leader who rose to power on the promise to sieze the Anglo-Iranian OIl Company form the Brits. The entire coup (which was mostly a British thing BTW) was instigated because the Americans and Brits didn't want him starting the precident of nationalization in the developing world. It was greed and strategy (the Naviy's fleets running on oil) that forced the US hand. Whats ironic is that in the end, nationalizatioin happened anyway.

Had moessediq not wanted to nationalize the US/UK probably would have supported him, but he couldn't do that because his whole reason for being there was nationalization.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And his flirtations with the Tudeh and Moscow?

You are right to cite economic motives as important in explaining Anglo-American intervention, Octavius. But you left out anticommunism entirely -- not to mention Mossadeq's hostility and open antagonism towards the British (who were no saints in this event either). If you want the honey, kicking the beehive is not the optimal way to get it.

Iranians still have not learned that negotiating tactic...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And his flirtations with the Tudeh and Moscow?

You are right to cite economic motives as important in explaining Anglo-American intervention, Octavius. But you left out anticommunism entirely -- not to mention Mossadeq's hostility and open antagonism towards the British (who were no saints in this event either).


Well despite what the lunatic cold warriors think, the decision of whether or not to hitch your wagon to the communist star should be made by a soverign country, not the US and the UK. It is thgat specific behaviour which has led to the Iranian Revolution, Hugo Chavez, the Taliban, etc etc etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International