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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| It looks to me... |
I do not believe you can have served in a tactical military unit. You are instructed to go with the flow in such interrogations -- especially where you are not at war and not in a position to reveal vital intelligence info (warplans, codes, etc.).
Your position is too harsh.
But do fault command for establishing such rules of engagement that enabled their capture. United States Marines understand that they are instructed to defend themselves against any attack and without hesitation. Do not know what the British were doing conducting operations there armed with -- I understand -- sidearms only... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems as Gopher said these sailors didn't have serious ammo with them and felt outgunned. I just don't agree that they needed to fight back in an unfair fight where they were surrounded. It was more like a scenario of 5 against one. It would have been a Thermopylae with a predictable result and Britain and the U.S. would have been forced to go to war. The sailors probably knew there was not much they could have done. I personally if my comrades were willing to fight to fire on the Iranians even if it meant my death, because trying to seize British personnel is an act of war, but they weren't prepared, they thought there was some misunderstanding, they didn't expect the Iranians to conduct themselves like that since there was no state of war with Iran. They were caught in an unexpected situation. Gopher, it is different when you are expecting something, prepared, and heavily armed. They wouldn't even had the fire power to hold them off while reinforcements would come in to pulverize the Iranian forces. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed with both Gopher and Advanturer's point which relates to being taken by Iranians.
My point is that the marines and sailors broke down so easily and spilled their guts which brought disgrace and embarrassment to their country and to their people. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
Agreed with both Gopher and Advanturer's point which relates to being taken by Iranians.
My point is that the marines and sailors broke down so easily and spilled their guts which brought disgrace and embarrassment to their country and to their people. |
I differed with Gopher in saying that if they didn't expect the Iranians to be hostile and thought they could reason with them, then it wasn't a matter of cowardice or behaving badly but not being properly trained to deal with the possibility of being confronted at sea by Iran or having protective air support for them. It should have been anticipated considering the pressure from Britain and America on Iran. The British sailors were caught off guard, and, perhaps, were in no real position to get out their guns and fight. It would have been simple suicide, and they wouldn't have been really able to take out any Iranians. So it is easy to judge the British sailors who had no support, were all of a sudden surprised. I would have fought if I was capable of doing so and putting on a good defence. Otherwise, I would probably have done what they did. You can't really say what they did was wrong considering their limited options and the surprise they got. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| The British sailors were caught off guard, and, perhaps, were in no real position to get out their guns and fight. |
Since they were not at war with Iran, they weren't in a position to take action just on the basis that the Iranians were approaching. When it finally became clear what the Iranians were up to, it was too late for them to defend themselves successfully.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2051924,00.html
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The crew insisted they had been in Iraqi waters when they were seized. They said they were surrounded by eight Iranian boats and, although they had made their weapons ready, they had no chance of overpowering the Iranians.
Captain Chris Air of the Royal Marines said: "The Iranians are not our enemies. We are not at war with them. By the time the true intent of the Iranians had become apparent and we could legitimately have fought back it was too late for action.
"We were completely surrounded and, in addition to any loss of life, any attempted fightback would have caused a major international incident and an escalation of tension within the region. Our team had seconds to make a decision and we believe we made the right decision."
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I'm glad they played it the way they did. I don't want my country involved in yet another stupid war. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
My point is that the marines and sailors broke down so easily and spilled their guts which brought disgrace and embarrassment to their country and to their people. |
Yours is the kind of stupid macho pride that often gets us all into so much trouble in the first place. To anyone less prone to such an adolescent standard of honour, it's the perpetrators who have disgraced themselves and their country, not vice-versa. It's an extension of your kind of thinking that often sees a rape victim shamed rather than her/his attacker. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Occasionally this forum produces a thoughtful thread. This is one of them. Lots of good points here, even from Big Bird.
But I agree with Kuros the most:
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| OTOH, I would not place the blame on the soldiers themselves. They seem to have been following their country's rules of engagement. |
It'd be interesting to know whether the British High Command anticipated such a scenario and, if so, whether contingency plans were set in motions and carried out down through the ranks.
Regardless, this press conference shows what punks these Iranians are: threatening execution is beyond the pale.
On my own thread, what galled me was the returned British soldier criticizing his own countrymen's attitude toward the Iranians. That had no place, especially if he was in uniform when he said it. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ChuckECheese wrote: |
My point is that the marines and sailors broke down so easily and spilled their guts which brought disgrace and embarrassment to their country and to their people. |
Yours is the kind of stupid macho pride that often gets us all into so much trouble in the first place. To anyone less prone to such an adolescent standard of honour, it's the perpetrators who have disgraced themselves and their country, not vice-versa. It's an extension of your kind of thinking that often sees a rape victim shamed rather than her/his attacker. |
What ever big-bird. Thanks for letting us know that you have no "Honor" and ignorant of it's meaning. Oh wait do you spell it "Honour?" |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
What ever big-bird. Thanks for letting us know that you have no "Honor" and ignorant of it's meaning. Oh wait do you spell it "Honour?" |
And that's what passes for wit in your neck of the woods? Or could it be that you are actually ignorant of the differences in British and American spellings. The latter would not surprise. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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My points were these, which I now clarify one-by-one:
Command placed a British patrol in a known hostile area armed with sidearms. Fault them for that.
My guess is that Iranian special ops reconned them, plotted patterns, and, knowing the situation, confidently siezed them. Fault the Iranians for this. And this is the central issue here, in my view.
I do not fault the sailors and marines for that -- any good commander, at least in the Western military tradition, ought not fight an impossible fight, sacrifice his troops, etc. The thing to do is surrender at that moment -- and that decision takes extreme courage and wisdom.
Finally, the British sailors and marines "talked." But we have seen this since the First Gulf War and as late as -- I believe -- the female American journalist who was seized, filmed, and released in 2006. When a hostage there, talk, go with the flow, "confess" to whatever they like, and survive.
And I do not fault these sailors and marines for this. Not for a moment. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Finally, the British sailors and marines "talked." But we have seen this since the First Gulf War and as late as -- I believe -- the female American journalist who was seized, filmed, and released in 2006. When a hostage there, talk, go with the flow, "confess" to whatever they like, and survive.
And I do not fault these sailors and marines for this. Not for a moment. |
I guess what you're saying is that the old conventional approach demanding and honoring fair treatment of captured prisoner of war(I don't know what you would call it in this instance. Maybe hostages?) under Geneval Convention or other international law doesn't apply with Iranians or any other islamic thug states.
So be it. Next time......  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| I guess what you're saying is... |
Seems to be the situation, ChuckECheese.
On the other hand, one can always make these kinds of statements with a huge amount of credibility after release...
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| Some of the 15 British sailors and marines freed after nearly two weeks captivity in Iran speak publicly about their experiences and their statements about allegedly entering Iranian waters... |
All Things Considered
Worth a listen. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I wonder if the Iranians truly imagined that the captive sailors would stick to the same stories once they got back home. I'm inclined to think that the whole business wasn't thought out very carefully. Or perhaps Iranians are incredibly naive? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| ChuckECheese wrote: |
This ordeal definately made the GB a laughing stock among super powers. Meow~~~  |
The US must be happy to have some company for a change.
But if you think it better that all 15 were now dead and the UK and Iran were so much closer to war, then good for you. |
And you know the Iranians would have lied and said that the Brits attacked them. Heck, they may have even sunk the Indian boat and put the blame on the Brits. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| any good commander, at least in the Western military tradition, ought not fight an impossible fight, sacrifice his troops, etc. The thing to do is surrender at that moment -- and that decision takes extreme courage and wisdom.And I do not fault these sailors and marines for this. Not for a moment. |
Thats true. Never fight a suicidal battle against a far greater power than you for honours sake.
They were taken by surprise, by a nation they were not at war with. I think they did the right thing. the only other option would have been to fight and be certainly killed in seconds.Britain knows what to expect now. |
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