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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
Interesting. I wonder if the Iranians truly imagined that the captive sailors would stick to the same stories once they got back home. I'm inclined to think that the whole business wasn't thought out very carefully. Or perhaps Iranians are incredibly naive? |
Well I doubt the post release statements will be aired in or Iran or its allies.
The propaganda produced by the Iranians with these British sailors will be used to gather support amongst the Iranian people against the west. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:30 am Post subject: |
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gang ah jee opined:
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| Interesting. I wonder if the Iranians truly imagined that the captive sailors would stick to the same stories once they got back home. I'm inclined to think that the whole business wasn't thought out very carefully. Or perhaps Iranians are incredibly naive? |
It has been confirmed--years ago--that the Revolutionary Guard coastal contingent that seized these blokes operates independently of the Iranian Navy. The sheer fact that Tehran condones this is indicative of its rogue state status in my book. So it was all premeditated with this caveat: I do think it caught Tehran (on holiday) by surprise. The hairy left hand didn't know what the hairy right hand was doing. But they both ended up inside a flashy suit coat. 
Gopher: just to clarify (although you didn't address me on this)
I don't condemn the Brits for not resisting. Discretion is the better part of valor. I do agree that sidearms were inappropriate but then the RN was trying to keep a less provocative profile. Either way, the fault lies with the Iranians.
But, let me repeat from a previous post, I do think that seaman who stepped forward AFTER his arrival in Britain to criticize his country's policies was way out of line, especially at this delicate moment. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| Well I doubt the post release statements will be aired in or Iran or its allies. The propaganda produced by the Iranians with these British sailors will be used to gather support amongst the Iranian people against the west. |
You could be right. I'm wondering about two things here though. Firstly, weren't the televised statements, letters denouncing coalition policy etc quite sympathetic to the actual people involved? I mean, it wasn't the kind of dehumanising propaganda that one would expect from a country trying to incite its population to wage war. They were making a show out of some developing 'friendship' between the captives and Iran, which doesn't quite seem like effective war propaganda to me - better to have anonymous reported confessions from a faceless enemy if the purpose is to incite. Of course having said that, it was probably quite good for encouraging a sense of moral superiority, and I'd say it was likely intended to imply a contrast with treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.
Secondly, I think the Iranian internet is free enough that anyone who was interested in finding out about the return home probably could. Minor points perhaps, but to me it all looked quite improvised. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ChuckECheese wrote: |
My point is that the marines and sailors broke down so easily and spilled their guts which brought disgrace and embarrassment to their country and to their people. |
Yours is the kind of stupid macho pride that often gets us all into so much trouble in the first place. To anyone less prone to such an adolescent standard of honour, it's the perpetrators who have disgraced themselves and their country, not vice-versa. It's an extension of your kind of thinking that often sees a rape victim shamed rather than her/his attacker. |
What ever big-bird. Thanks for letting us know that you have no "Honor" and ignorant of it's meaning. Oh wait do you spell it "Honour?" |
Chuck, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, and people from the U.K., and the Irish spell it that way. Are you slamming people from the Commonwealth for not using the spelling of one particular English-speaking country? It is irrelevant to the discussion, buddy. Who cares about the spelling, and it is not like people know how to spell so well these days, anyway, if you haven't noticed. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
Interesting. I wonder if the Iranians truly imagined that the captive sailors would stick to the same stories once they got back home. I'm inclined to think that the whole business wasn't thought out very carefully. Or perhaps Iranians are incredibly naive? |
What is funny is that the Iranians are complaing that the British sailors were encouraged to say what they said. England is not a hostile country for British soldiers, Iran is a hostile country. So whatever they would say on Iranian television is not reliable since they had no access to British officials or even any other country's officials.
The Iranians need to beging changing their tune when dealing with the U.S. and E.U. They along with the Gulf Arabian states are running out of patience. There is a problem, however, with China and Russia. They seem to be enabling Iran's behaviour. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| In 20 years, when the world's superpower will be China |
China will not be the sole superpower in 20 years. Expect a multi-polar world of overlapping spheres. But back on topic, the behaviour of the UK soldiers was embarrassing. Spinoza, that is what this whole ordeal was designed to do. Iran embarrassed the UK.
I understand that most non-Americans aren't used to criticism of their country by foreigners, but your defensive ramblings are naked nationalism and nothing more.
Anyhow, I'm very glad that it all ended without so much as a single drop of blood being drawn. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| It's an extension of your kind of thinking that often sees a rape victim shamed rather than her/his attacker. |
Oh yeah, bring rape into this. Why don't you run around screaming "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!!!".
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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McGarrett: that is right: I, too, squarely fault Tehran for planning and perpetrating the entire thing. They want regional hegemony and they want nuclear weapons. That explains all of this -- all of it, from at least as early as last summer's war.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| What is funny is that the Iranians are complaing that... |
They are not alleging "encouraged," Adventurer...
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Iran reacted to those comments by saying the briefing was "staged" to cover up the mistake made by the British crew by entering Iranian waters.
"Such staged moves cannot cover up the mistake made by British military personnel who illegally entered Iran's territory," Iran's Foreign Ministry said in a statement faxed to Reuters.
Iranian state-run television accused British Prime Minister Tony Blair of pressuring the marines and sailors into disavowing their admission to the Iraqi military that their vessel had strayed into Iranian territorial waters. |
CNN Reports
That is because they are twisted people, Adventurer. Twisted by Third-World hyper-nationalism and hypersensitivity to slight, by a hate-filled and anti-Western/antiAmerican/anti-Israeli religious fundamentalist worldview, and by having lived for decades scapegoating Britain and America for all that is wrong in their country.
Worth rereading Tehran's "letter to the American people" again to see what I mean... |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| In 20 years, when the world's superpower will be China |
China will not be the sole superpower in 20 years. |
Interesting how some people would love to see China as the sole superpower. China as in the country that violates human rights of MILLIONS of people, a country where freedom of speech is inexistant, etc. Basically one of the most oppressive regimes in the world. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer suggested:
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| They seem to be enabling Iran's behaviour. |
not seem to be, but are
C'mon, get some backbone. I know you've got it in ya.
And just remember this: the Chinese and Russians NEVER put world interests ahead of national self-interest. The West sometimes does.
Last edited by stevemcgarrett on Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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The OP basically has it right. The RN personnel are an embarassment to the UK due to their snivelling "behaviour" in captivity. Perhaps Churchill had it right:
"Don't tell me about the traditions of the Royal Navy. It's all rum, sodomy and the lash." |
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