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Homer
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 Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Kiwi,
Well..what can one do before such well structured agruments (or are they in fact a form of dementia).
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| Anyway, I'm right and you're wrong, simple as that. Number one, I'm way more intelligent than you, two, my methodology is more sound as I consult wider sources, three, Korea's xenophobia is famous, well documented, and no serious sociologist or historian disputes it, and four, I'm right and you're wrong. |
You should do stand up comedy Kiwi, you might do well. This last bit was priceless....  |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zed wrote: |
Many teachers here won't even use this board since it gives them such a negative view of life here and they don't want to be infected by it. If people are constantly hearing the negative then it will natuarally rub off on them.
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Well yes, exactly. As I understand it there are over 10,000 foreign language teachers in the ROK and I dont see anything like that number complaining here and on other boards; they are getting on with it and enjoying themselves. And everyone goes through an early phase of hating Korea.
When I first joined this board I used to constantly defend Korea against undeserved blanket statements, quite simply because it wasn't my experience at all. I felt compelled to both defend Korea against complaints about ills which I feel exist pretty much everywhere, and help my fellow expats see that they are not necessarily hated by their Korean hosts. Now I just don't bother, I'm really pretty comfortable with letting them wallow in their misery. I haven't the energy. You cant change peoples' prejudice through a message board.
Which is why I was so happy to see Homer's excellent post. Brilliant. Homer I have never seen my own thoughts and feelings so well articulated by someone else. Frames. How succinct. You need a fuggin medal mate. |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer, I congratulate on your high mindedness in your relations to Koreans. It is the better road to fallow, and the easier one too. I guess it is easier to stand back and deconstruct what is happening to you, placing nice pretty western notions of respect for others, while the others take big dumps on you. Hey at least it doesn't stick with your thought process. I don't know why I don't take this road, I know it well, but yet reject a lot of it. It sounds like you except you're outside the process, always the foreigner, the teacher, the worker, the used, the objectified, and the toyed. That is good, for it is easier that way, but you lose your humanity that way, while thinking you are building it up. It is wrong for me to think that I have some right to be in Korea, that I should go unmolested in my daily life, it certainly would make my life a lot more simple if I didn't believed it. You forget that you don't belong when you live somewhere for a long time. I think you are deluding yourself, like you are dealing with Korean culture as if you are still watching some Korean cultural performance back in Canada, feeling cultured and good about yourself for supporting diversity. What a chip you must have on your shoulder to walk around Korea, learning Korean cultural as others live it. Why don't you live it, instead of standing back and deconstructing it? You appear as if you are taking in Korean culture for the purpose of being cultured, building up your social capital, feeling smug, humane, educated, moving to greater understanding, for what? To berate others and me for acting on notions others than yours, as if yours hold more weight? Yes, more weight back in Canada, but not here on the ground in Korea. And all the while in the pits of reality, Korea laughs at you and uses you when its convenient for some PR stunt, for it can't use me for Korea isn't liberal like me, so it goes to you. I see no life, no viscera of connection, no enjoyment in your Korean experience, only an aloof, misplaced person being battered about a bit, trying to understand what is happening. That is all fine, but it is like living life in a bubble where you don't participate, but only observe. |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| wow, you saved my posting pretty fast, even before I had a chance to edited it. And one more thing, it is next to nought to argue with someone who doesn't have an issue with a problem. That is good for you. Like said, it is the better way. I am happy you are happy with you job, wife, and co-workers. I am also very happy here in Korea will most likely stay for years and years. But I don't use 'frames' in Korea, I use Korean culture, and my own personal honesty, humility, caring, and humor. Best wishes to you, but I really don't want to drag is on. It makes me feel uncomfortable. |
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indiercj
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:55 am Post subject: |
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As long as one has enough intereaction with Korean society and has indepth understanding of it, i don't care what he has to say: rant, curse, whatever. Even the "they don't like me when they should!" kind. It's entertaining. Well, i think i have the Korean rant fetish or something.
Korean pervert. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| When I first joined this board I used to constantly defend Korea against undeserved blanket statements, quite simply because it wasn't my experience at all |
That's why your analysis is irrelevant. It's not even analysis, it's a personal perspective, and means nothing. You, like Homer, have a good time here, ergo, nothing can be wrong, and the complainers are just ignorant and negative. There are two basic types here:
Having a good time, so either not complaining, or actively defending
Having a bad time, so complaining
I, on the other hand, am personally having a great time, but I'm complaining. I cast a wide net in my analysis, I consult many message boards, I read many news sources, I talk to a lot of teachers, and koreans. That makes my analysis more objective. What I find is:
If you are involved in violence with a Korean, even if YOU were attacked, and the police get involved, you are in the wrong. At best you won't get help, at worst YOU may be charged.
If your contract is broken by your boss, often at considerable financial cost to you, the labour board will rarely act for you, and if they do will often be unsuccessful.
When buying un-priced goods, or expensive electronics at Yongsan, you will be charged a "foreigner price".
Certain recreational establishments are able to deny entry on the basis of race and receive no heat from the law.
Club owners my hire thugs who may use baseball bats, pepper spray, and rubber bullet guns on foreign patrons, even though they are already outside the establishment ( and getting them out was the so-called problem ), to the point of hospitalization, and the law does not act for or protect the foreigner.
Your boss "owns" your visa, a situation that does not exist in any other first-world country. This allows all kinds of mistreatment and manipulation.
When koreans are killed by foreigners in a road accident there is holy national outcry. When a korean kills a korean or westerner on the road there is total silence. There is also no acknowledgement what so ever of the poor road design and infantile road safety habits of koreans that has resulted in them topping road death toll rates in the world for ten straight years.
If a foreigner rapes a korean there is national outcry that is highly racially focused. Yet there is no media focus at all on the appalling amount of rape and sexual abuse by korean men every day.
These are just the big things, they're documented, they're uncontestable. I haven't even touched on what it's like if you're a non-white foreigner. Several high-level reports have slated Korea as having the worst labour relations record in South East Asia, now that's some achievement.
I'm unmoved by the mindless cry that there is also racism in the US. Theoretically that doesn't excuse what happens here one little bit. But if you want to get comparative I'll say it, it's much worse here. Much much worse. Asians in the states are not ignored or even maliciously charged by the law. They are not barred from clubs and bars on the basis of race. If they have a working visa they are free to take their labor elsewhere without recrimination if they don't like their working conditions. They may receive hate "on the street", but here it's institutional, and supported at the level of law.
The US is not culturally monolithic, it does not act as one unified beast to discriminate against all outsiders. There are inter-cultural beefs in the US for sure, but there is nothing like unified wall of korean-ness that is encountered here.
I'm only talking about big things here. I could go on to the social nuances that also make this place totally uncomparable to the states under any framework. One thing to mention would be the uniformity of thinking, including highly erroneous thinking. In one example, when relaying the story of Hellios to an intelligent 22 year old, I was informed that it was impossible that the korean police were racially biased in their treatment of the case because no koreans were racist. Can you imagine that statement coming from even the most backwoods banjo-pickin' straw-chewin' moonshine-makin' bawlin' brawlin' red-necked hillbilly the state of South Carolina has ever produced? There simply is not that level of childlike naivety in the US. I mean Jeysoos Christos in heaven above knows there's ignorance in the states but " No one in america is racist " .... nah, I can't picture anyone saying that.
What we're dealing with is one mother of a backwards country here. I'm totally uninterested in excuses either. They want a big ole' piece o' that democratic capitalist standard of living pie, and that's why we're here. They feel it's their right now to be on equal footing with the developed nations. Welcome, you made it, congratulations! Now step up to the plate, go under the same microscope all of us "elite members" go under. You wanna be in the big boys club? Well surprise surprise, you get held to a higher standard up here.
"But we feel our relationship with the US is unequal"
"When you understand that EVERY country's relationship with the US is unequal, then you're sophisticated enough to play with the big boys" |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Kiwi,
Are you a Borg?
Also, just because you think you are right does not make it so.
Your "analysis" is no more valid then anothers because it is based on your experiences and on how you perceived them...but this debate is now useless as you are so convinced you are absolutely right and all others wrong that it can progress no further.
Butterfly, thanks...
Last edited by Homer on Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:25 am Post subject: |
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[quote="kiwiboy_nz_99"]
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If your contract is broken by your boss, often at considerable financial cost to you, the labour board will rarely act for you, and if they do will often be unsuccessful.
What we're dealing with is one mother of a backwards country here. I'm totally uninterested in excuses either. " |
Just as an aside, I find that whenever I make comments like the above first quote I get attacked by people like Mr. Mankind saying "no you're wrong. The labour does stand up for people, even illegal workers." I notice that he is quite silent however when other people make these statements.
Kiwi if you feel this country is so backwards, then why do you stay here? If you choose to stay in a country, then by extension you choose to accept its way of life and customs. For example the Mormons claimed it was their right to have polygamy. But it was against the laws of America and in order to live there they had to adjust to those laws. I could go on and state a great many other cases where the minority had to adjust to the laws made by the majority, but your Google is as good as mine. If you don't want to adjust, well there are a lot of other countries out there. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Kiwi,
Good post. I would hesitate to call Korea a first-world nation though. Maybe in another 20 years? And these things that go on regarding foreigners will continue to go on a long time, as it will be a long time till most Koreans have any real grasp of what's going on outside their small country. Hell, if I never left my home province I suppose my views would be more limited, but still I got to meet lots of people from other countries. Well, English is the so-called global language, so we have that advantage. And lots of people from many countries want to go to the US or Canada. Who wants to go to Korea, other than us poor EFL slobs? No offense if you're not a slob  |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Your "analysis" is no more valid then anothers because it is based on your experiences and on how you perceived them...but this debate is now useless as you are so convinced you are absolutely right and all others wrong that it can progress no further.
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Well, that's exactly why I claim I am presenting a more convincing argument than you, because my analysis is precisely NOT just based on my own personal experience.
You say this debate is now useless, but I didn't attack you in any personal way. My last post was sensible and reasoned, and you didn't respond to any of the points I made. I fail to see how I've killed the debate, but if you want to bow out gracefully, fine.
| Quote: |
Just as an aside, I find that whenever I make comments like the above first quote I get attacked by people like Mr. Mankind saying "no you're wrong. The labour does stand up for people, even illegal workers." I notice that he is quite silent however when other people make these statements.
Kiwi if you feel this country is so backwards, then why do you stay here? If you choose to stay in a country, then by extension you choose to accept its way of life and customs. For example the Mormons claimed it was their right to have polygamy. But it was against the laws of America and in order to live there they had to adjust to those laws. I could go on and state a great many other cases where the minority had to adjust to the laws made by the majority, but your Google is as good as mine. If you don't want to adjust, well there are a lot of other countries out there. |
Well, literally they have acted successfully in defense of foreigners on several occassions. What I'm saying is that in the majority of cases they don't. I had a friend who was blatantly ripped off to the tune of $2500US and he went to the board. They had the nerve to tell him "Yes, you are completely in the right legally, he ripped you off and broke the contract and the law, but in this case we are not able to do anything about it." They wouldn't give him a reason either. Possibly a little white envelope changed hands at some point.
As to the second part of your post, that approach is as old as the hills and I had hoped I'd seen the last of it. If you read my post carefully I stated that my own personal life workd fine here. I just have wider concerns than my own good time. I have my eyes open, my "feelers" out into the wider context of the esl industry. I see shoddy treatment of my fellow teachers and I am not ok about that. Perhaps because I'm a serious esl lifer it means more to me, but I want to see the industry cleaned up in several ways. Both shoddy employers and shoddy teachers must go. Lastly, it's more than the esl industry, I don't like racism, and I won't shut up about it. That in no way means I should go home either, what good would that do? Then I'd just be leaving a new wave of newbies to the slaughter. I will be here for a LONG time. My aim to become totally fluent in korean and enter politics. If that's not possible I want to work in some official organisational capacity that forwards the humanitarian advancement of this country, or at least acts a watchdog for the esl industry. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Jajdude, thankyou. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
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Kiwi if you feel this country is so backwards, then why do you stay here? If you choose to stay in a country, then by extension you choose to accept its way of life and customs. For example the Mormons claimed it was their right to have polygamy. But it was against the laws of America and in order to live there they had to adjust to those laws. I could go on and state a great many other cases where the minority had to adjust to the laws made by the majority, but your Google is as good as mine. If you don't want to adjust, well there are a lot of other countries out there. |
As to the second part of your post, that approach is as old as the hills and I had hoped I'd seen the last of it. . |
Actually it was a serious question. I really truly cannot comprehend why people if they hate this place, just don't leave. It seems that the people who bitch about this place yet don't leave have decided to treat this question as a no-go zone, just because they don't have a answer for it.
The only reason I can think of, is that they absolutely have no other option. Hey if you are happy here, more power to you. Just seems like a case of biting the hand that feeds you.
Let's not forget that most people in terms of pay(to list just one) have never had it so good in their home countries. Seems a bit rich to complain about Korea then.
How many people on this board, before they came to Korea had free housing, a salary (equal to) 2 million won, a 5% tax rate and only worked 30 hours a week to boot? Not too many.
By the way this question is directed at the people who stay and complain. NOT the people who leave. |
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waterbaby
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Baking Gord a Cheescake pie
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| If you choose to stay in a country, then by extension you choose to accept its way of life and customs. |
Are you suggesting that we should just accept it when our bosses break our contracts? That we should accept it when they don't want to pay us the money they owe us? That we should accept being blatantly discriminated against because of the colour of our skin or eyes or nationality? Because that IS the way of life here in Korea. Corruption and ripping people off are a part of the "way and life and customs" here in Korea.
Good post Kiwiboy. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Sure thing Kiwi,
Call it "bowing out gracefully"..whatever works for you. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you butterfly. I could go on at length about the racism and other bad behavior, I have seen in the United States. I could paint everyone from the U.S. with that brush. But it would not be true, of course.
I have had my share of good experiences and bad since I have been in Korea. Usually both are experienced more strongly because I am relatively new here and a bit more sensitive to things. But on a daily basis the good outweigh the bad. Of course, it wouldn't seem that way if I only focused on the bad, and went on a continuous rant when the bad happens.
Everything is relative, as they say. I had a pr1ck of a busdriver the other day, but the ajumas on the bus made sure that I got off at the right stop, and were collectively p1ssed at the driver for not being more helpful. I had my bags stolen by a taxi driver- valued at over $1000 U.S., but the police and everyone else were extremely, extremely solicitious and helpful. The housing office even called me in to see if they could do something. The police inspector offered to come to my office to sort it out and see if he could do more for me. The whole incident was caused by stupidity on my and my fellow teacher's part in the first place- a fact that no one reminded us of. I have lived in a lot of places in the U.S., and I can't imagine that happening in any of them.
The bus drivers in Miami have to be the rudest on God's green earth, and no-one comes to your rescue- its not their problem. Have a property theft incident in a U.S. city, and the police quickly let you know that it is hopeless. They will take a report to humor you, and move on.
People are different everywhere. But I still find Koreans to be warm hearted, in general, kind, and also sometimes achingly naive.
If you focus on the bad stuff, of course that is what you will see. I was totally unprepared for Korea when I got here. Why? Because I had been reading this message board, and believed all of the bad stuff.
If your situation is really untenable, figure out how to get out of here. Not everyplace is for everybody. But I think that there are people here who would be miserable anywhere. In fact they may even be happier here because they can find so much to kvetch about, and an electronic audience that often comiserates. |
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