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Vimy Ridge and national mythology (WWI)

 
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Vimy Ridge and national mythology (WWI) Reply with quote

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/09/vimy-memorial-070409.html

Here in Canada the Vimy Ridge anniversary is eating up the airwaves. Lots of platitudes of how the battle "created Canada" and how the young soldiers "died for freedom".

To all those who would maintain that Vimy was a glorious sacrifice of young Canadian men to maintain liberty, suffice it to say that they are blissfully ignorant about the historical events that led to it such as the Triple Alliance and Triple Entente as well as the historical events that followed it.

Of all the wars fought, WWI, is probably the most pointless of all and should stand only as a monument to human stupidity.There was nothing glorious about it. A lot of poor young men died for nothing as in the end nothing was saved nor preserved and everybody lost. Anything that glorifies participation in WWI is disturbing.

The Quebecois got it right when they refused to participate in a war between crumbling Empires.
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stevemcgarrett



Joined: 24 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catman:

It might surprise you that I agree wholeheartedly. The First World War wasn't about ideology, it was about rampant nationalism. Many Americans, especially of German descent, wanted us to refrain from fighting or support the Kaiser.

Such a senseless loss of life which no book captures better than Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front.

And the French vindictiveness toward Germany after the war was unjustifiable--so much so that even Wilson and Lloyd George complained at Versaille. Ironically, it planted the seeds for the Nazi Party to exploit.

Only a few of these veterans still alive, by the way.
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waggo



Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemcgarrett wrote:
catman:

It might surprise you that I agree wholeheartedly. The First World War wasn't about ideology, it was about rampant nationalism. Many Americans, especially of German descent, wanted us to refrain from fighting or support the Kaiser.

Such a senseless loss of life which no book captures better than Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front.

And the French vindictiveness toward Germany after the war was unjustifiable--so much so that even Wilson and Lloyd George complained at Versaille. Ironically, it planted the seeds for the Nazi Party to exploit.

Only a few of these veterans still alive, by the way.


America did refrain from fighting....It was only because the British intercepted a telegram to the German Ambassador inMexico (the Krugergram) and the Lusitania got sunk that America decided to pick sides.
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freethought



Joined: 13 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, WW1 was a purely imperialist conflict and really shouldn't be 'celebrated' in anyway. It's a monument to greed and stupidity--- incidentally not all that different than another conflict currently going on in that respect.

As for Canada becoming a country... it only gets called that when anniversaries of wars come up. The Halibut Treaty is technically the first 'real' canadian act of independence (how lame is that, BTW?)

As for the explanation as to why the yanks entered the war, yes, the mexico fiasco as well as the lusitania were big, but the major reason was the TOTAL losses suffered in shipping and to commerce on the whole.

Also, the French/Clemenceau making demands is too simplistic. The Brits made a hell of a lot of demands, and reparations claims were coming from many parties. Fench scapegoating is both lame and factually incorrect. If you want a great summary of the peace conference Marg MacMillan's Paris 1919 is a good source, though it is lacking a number of key incidents and has a less than stellar/disappointing conclusion section. The narrative of the conference, though, is excellent.
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stevemcgarrett



Joined: 24 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waggo:

Yes, I'm familiar with the Zimmerman telegram and the immediate causes for American involvement and I do believe we were motivated by some amount of altruism when we intervened. Many moons ago I befriended a combat vet of this war and these were his sentiments. The Yanks who went early on in the conflict and voluntarily were usually quite idealistic, actually. I think we had a poor understanding of the Germans back them, a kind of Hun mentality that played into the hands of the French.

freethought:

The Brits made demands but the reparations the French expected from the Ruhr Valley were unrealistic and overly punitive. Nothing simplistic about that, Dr. Porn.
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freethought



Joined: 13 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemcgarrett wrote:
waggo:

freethought:

The Brits made demands but the reparations the French expected from the Ruhr Valley were unrealistic and overly punitive. Nothing simplistic about that, Dr. Porn.


Actually, it is, because it would be completely ignoring all of the Belgian demands, which were enormous... Again, if you haven't read Paris 1919, or something similar, then read something, because the entire process was unbelievably complex with massive demands coming from every corner. The French demands were major, massive and extremely difficult to deal with... but blaming EVERYTHING on the french IS simplistic and inaccurate.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and the imposed peace created the social/cultural conditions for the rise of a fascist madman.

To try and relate this to current events, sometimes it is best to let people fight it out.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two issues here. Lots of young men died in a horrible, horrible way. We'll never have to die like that. Who are you to take away a celebration of their heroism. On the flip side, I agree that we have to look at Vimy Ridge in perspective. Did no Canadian general have the balls to say "this is just pointless slaughter, Lord Kitchner."

Ready aye ready.
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stevemcgarrett



Joined: 24 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Porn persisted:

Quote:
The French demands were major, massive and extremely difficult to deal with... but blaming EVERYTHING on the french IS simplistic and inaccurate.


Point out where precisely I said that the French were to blame for everything. Now that's being simplistic.

But it is worth noting that the Germans themselves--both Hindenburg and Hitler--blamed the French, rightly or wrongly, more than others for the resurgence of German nationalism.
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