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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for that post. We all know NK is in very bad shape. Why the idea that America is sometimes considered more an enemy, I don't know. Strange place SK. Extremely strange place NK. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:15 am Post subject: |
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A very (very) tiny ray of sunshine that was omitted from the Globe article- for the first time the parade (which was described at the beginning of the article) consisted of soldiers, civilians and women in hanbok. Missing for the first time were the rows upon rows upon rows of tanks and missle launchers. Too lazy to find the link (heck, it might have even been posted here a few weeks ago).
[Then again, it could also be indicative of the severity of the fuel shortage...] |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan wrote: |
Ok, tell me something. I supported regime change in Iraq, and regime change (regime assasination) in north korea. but most of the people here obviously were opposed to war in Iraq. well, how was that very different from this?
I'd say it was bordering on nearly the same thing. sure there is a lot more hunger in NK, but the brutality of those in command, and their affluence while the rest of the country starved is nearly identical. And if NK is the last totalitarian state, that is only because Iraq was taken out before this little trip.
atrocities happened in Iraq too, and as long as no one did anything about it, we could talk about the horrors of the place. |
Everyone here would like to see regime change in North Korea. However, I don't think everyone wants the US to directly attack North Korea tomorrow. Some people may want that though. This might be a good poll question. |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:14 pm Post subject: hmm |
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eamo please tell us what are some of the good things that this journalist could of have told us about NK. The truth is that there are hardly any positive things that could be reported about NK. Actually come to think of it for such a poor and backwards nation they have very good technology and science. Unfortunately they stole most of their techonology. It is also unfortunate that most of their efforts go into sustaining their military and building weapons, such as nuclear weapons.
except for a few people in the top ranks the people are malnourished, their hospitals are woefully inadequate, night power shortages, and the list goes on.
The author of the article only reported negative things because thats those are the only things one can see in NK. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: hmm |
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| ulsanchris wrote: |
eamo please tell us what are some of the good things that this journalist could of have told us about NK. The truth is that there are hardly any positive things that could be reported about NK. Actually come to think of it for such a poor and backwards nation they have very good technology and science. Unfortunately they stole most of their techonology. It is also unfortunate that most of their efforts go into sustaining their military and building weapons, such as nuclear weapons.
except for a few people in the top ranks the people are malnourished, their hospitals are woefully inadequate, night power shortages, and the list goes on.
The author of the article only reported negative things because thats those are the only things one can see in NK. |
What makes you think I believe he should say good things about North Korea?
I'm only talking about unbalanced journalism here.
My point was, and still is, he should have put the negative things he saw in North Korea into perspective with the problems the rest of the world also has.
The inference of the whole article was that everything is bad in North Korea because they have a communist system. Yet you can see the same kind of poverty and social shortcomings in most if not all capitalist countries of the world.
A good writer would have reminded us of this. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:20 pm Post subject: Thanks for the update on capitalism.... |
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| "Poverty and social shortcomings" in a capitalist society? Who'd a thunk it? The point is that in mature capitalist societies extremes of wealth and poverty exist alongside a sizable middle class and those extremes are openly debated in a free society(capitalism has GENERALLY flourished alongside liberal democracy). There has not been one communist society where the mass of the population has not suffered material deprivation(in both absolute and relative terms) and deprivation of negative rights(e.g. freedom of speech). Not one. So, yes, it IS relevant to point to N. Korea's communist system as the root cause of its ills. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks for the update on capitalism.... |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| "Poverty and social shortcomings" in a capitalist society? Who'd a thunk it? The point is that in mature capitalist societies extremes of wealth and poverty exist alongside a sizable middle class and those extremes are openly debated in a free society(capitalism has GENERALLY flourished alongside liberal democracy). There has not been one communist society where the mass of the population has not suffered material deprivation(in both absolute and relative terms) and deprivation of negative rights(e.g. freedom of speech). Not one. So, yes, it IS relevant to point to N. Korea's communist system as the root cause of its ills. |
So you agree there is poverty in capitalist countries. So I can point to capitalism as the root cause of the poverty in those countries? |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The inference of the whole article was that everything is bad in North Korea because they have a communist system. |
I didn't take this from the article at all. That NK is not in fact "communist" at all is beside the point.
The article seemed to be saying that everything is bad in the North because it's led by a small group of homicidal maniacs who will sacrifice thousands, if not millions, of their own people so they can continue to enjoy the trappings of power that come with leading a brainwashed nation. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
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| The inference of the whole article was that everything is bad in North Korea because they have a communist system. |
I didn't take this from the article at all. That NK is not in fact "communist" at all is beside the point.
The article seemed to be saying that everything is bad in the North because it's led by a small group of homicidal maniacs who will sacrifice thousands, if not millions, of their own people so they can continue to enjoy the trappings of power that come with leading a brainwashed nation. |
Bulls-eye. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:12 am Post subject: Puuulease, gents.... |
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Eamo: if capitalism is a "root cause" of anything, it is of the gradual increase in wealth and freedom for the mass of populations living in capitalist domains. Back to my original point, can you point to an example of a communist regime that hasn't conformed to the model of misery that I described?
Lemon: N. Korea isn't "communist"? You mean it doesn't resemble the pseudo-scientific (i.e. utopian ) vision of a workers' society as concocted by a work-shy fraud with a philosophy degree? If so, point conceded. But it IS the epitome of the 20th C. Marxist-Leninist totalitarian state that lives up to Orwell's "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others." |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:24 am Post subject: hmm |
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| Here is another dodgey bit of journalism from the same journalist about NK. Globe and Mail |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:35 am Post subject: |
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My problem with the piece was it's lack of balance. Many of North Korea's problems can be seen in any country you'd like to choose in the world.
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Um, how can I put this delicately? No they can't. Situations where 98% of a population is malnourished due to starvation while a ruling elite live a life of debauchery and excess DO exist in a very few other countries, but not in "any country you choose in the world"
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Yes, they have some unique problems due to the thick-headedness of their leaders but some of the stuff the writer pointed out was nothing to do with a country being communist yet the writer was inferring it was.
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Damn you for making me read such a long article again, so I can confidently say "You're full of bull" again. No where, and I mean no where is the word communist/communism ever mentioned in the article. At one point some buildings were described as Stalinist, that's as far as it went. The article more accrately described the country as "repressive", and "totalitarian". Don't even dream of contesting these terms or I shall have to consign you to dummy's corner permanantly.
No one suggests that communism causes this kind of suffering. Look at Cuba for the last however long, the people may not have been be well off or even comfortable, but they were not eating grass and producing malformed babies.
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Ever been to Africa or most of the third-world? I dare say this would be a common sight.
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No I haven't, and I dare say you haven't either. I do however read, an activity I would recomend you take up in massive quantity. You may find people eating grass in Somalia, and some other countries too, though your assertion that this happens all over Africa is patently false. This also is a travesty and not acceptable. The writer is in now way obliged to point out that other bad things happen in other places.
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I've seen scenes like this in a least ten western countries. These problems are not caused purely by having a communist system. Are they?
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Um no you haven't. Name a "western country" where taxi's are non existant. And again, no one suggested that this is caused by communism. It is caused by repressive totalitarianism. In any case the grimy buildings and lack of taxi's obviously are not the heart of the problem. The writer was simply being complete in his description.
The fact that some buildings are crumbling is not what constitutes the horror of this story, however, mentioning these details simpy completes the picture and may be relevant for one reason. There are crumbling buildings in the Balkans too, but no one is telling people that the Balkans is a "Peoples Paradice", see how that becomes relevant now? At least in most troubled areas of the world there is resistance and disturbances of various kinds. What is truly shocking about this situation is that Kim has got his population so starved and demoralised and brainwashed that he doesn't even have to lift a finger to engage in the kind of brutality that Hussein needed to maintain his regime.
Bucheon Bum you're the historian, so I ask you, has there ever been a more repressed population in modern history? |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| But it IS the epitome of the 20th C. Marxist-Leninist totalitarian state that lives up to Orwell's "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others." |
I didn't know that classical Marxist-Leninist systems replaced their dead leaders with eldest sons, just like monarchies. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Lemon: the dynastic bit is a historical red herring. Does it really make a difference if the next scumbag successor of "peoples' socialism/democracy/fill-in-the-blanks" is a blood relative or a master of politburo intrigue? On that note, it might be remembered that Castro's brother is slated to take over once Fidel(the darling of the western left) kicks off. And Ceauceascu's(sp?) sexy wife(LOL) had been slated to become Gen. Sec. after him.
kiwiboy: I suppose we should be allies here but I maintain the unhappy uniqueness of COMMUNIST totalitarian regimes in the last century. |
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Anda
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:47 am Post subject: Um |
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Balance is needed here. How dare this reporter say such bad things about what Dear Leader has done for his country. Let Maurice Strong put you right on what we need to do.
Democracy, national sovereignty and traditional religions are things which Maurice Strong has made clear must be replaced - and soon. For years, he has used his extensive web of high level international connections to advance the demise of these and other elements he believes are causing a too numerous and environmentally irresponsible humanity to endanger the well-being of the planet. Strong therefore supports abortion, homosexuality, contraception of every kind, liberal sexual morality and anything else that will decrease the world's population.
Strong, along with fellow de-population advocates and self-proclaimed international elite, Mikhail Gorbachev and Stephen Rockefeller, co-produced the Earth Charter to be a New World Ten Commandments. Such nonsense would normally not be taken seriously except for the close connections that Strong has at the U.N. and with many current and past world leaders. He has also been reported to be a good friend of George Bush senior
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/jan/03010703.html
Dear Maurice as can be seen is a special adviser to Dear Leader's country so things must be okay. Why Dear Leader has quiet a good de-population program in place and doesn't have a democracy problem either.
Maurice Strong, a special adviser on North Korea to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, met with deputy foreign ministers Alexander Losyukov and Yuri Fedotov during a visit to Moscow on Wednesday and Thursday, the ministry said in a separate statement. "The need for the international community to take a balanced line, aimed at de-escalating the tension using peaceful, political-diplomatic means was noted" at the meetings, the ministry said. Russia's proposed "package agreement," which calls for the DPRK to observe international nuclear agreements in exchange for security guarantees and economic aid, "could become a realistic alternative to the escalation of the situation around North Korea, first of all through the establishment of direct dialogue between Washington and Pyongyang," the ministry said. ("RUSSIA WARNS US AGAINST ATTACKING NORTH KOREA," Moscow, 03/06/03)
http://north-korea.narod.ru/cis_nk_10.htm |
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