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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
| Natalia wrote: |
And yet again we'll hear the Americans chanting, "guns don't kill people, people kill people." And, " if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns." 
It's never ending. I just don't care anymore.
Until Americans wake up and realise they are the only so-called 'civilised' country in the world with a major gun problem - BECAUSE they have such stupid attitudes towards them - nothing is going to change. They are idiots plain and simple. |
Other than the last sentence there is absolutely nothing inaccurate or unfair in this post, and the last sentence I think is more an utterance of frustration than anything else.
The discussion on this board about America and accusations of 'anti' Americanism are simplistic. I have a korean friend whom if I ask why the Koreans have traffic lights placed where they are instead of on the far side of the intersection, he views it as an attack on Korea.... which is a kin to the mentality displayed on this board.
Gun control and gun deaths are a very BIG issue, with about 30,000 americans dying every year from guns in one way or another.
But one of the big things in this as with every issue about America, is that America is the centre of the world, both economically and culturally. It is the leading nation in just about every category. It is the richest and most powerful. It impacts the lives of every person on this planet, everyday, with the decisions its government makes. That is why criticism of America doesn't equate to Anti-Americanism.
As to Gopher's comparison to 2nd world, under developed countries and the crime and death rate there.... that's the issue, is that the American death rate from guns CAN be compared to those countries, and that is NOT A GOOD THING. We should not be able to make that comparison at all. Moreover, you can almost always say "oh that's not so bad" if you look at totally chaotic examples (eg: we don't need to do anything about homelessness in Canada, because the homeless here are way better off than the homeless in india).
As for Jinju's retarded guns don;t kill people post.... then let's give everyone an A bomb. Let saddam and the Norks and the chinese have whatever weapons they want. We shouldn't stop Iran from having a nuclear program, because nuclear weapons don;t kill people, people kill people. |
Freethought, I do respect your opinions. I thnk you have cogent thoughts. You are saying that it's okay, using the logic of the right to bare arms, that Iran should have a nuclear programme, because nuclear bombs don't kill countries' soldiers do. But, then again, you could also then say for the ultimate gun control that no country should have armies, and that would be unrealistic.
I think there can be something said about the fact that in Korea there are generally no gun crimes. Why? Guns are not allowed in the country. Only policemen and soldiers have them.
The people who say guns do not kill and people do have a point, though.
Forty years ago, in the U.S., people owned guns, but there were no Columbines and not so much violence. Just dealing with guns only deals with the symptoms not the root causes. And, Americans are entitled to bare arms under the U.S. Constitution. That cannot be changed so there is no point in debating that. Even not so controversial amendments are difficult to change.
What needs to be done is to deal with the cultural reasons surrounding the use of guns, engaging in violence, knifings. I mean there are a lot more stabbings as well. We can't ban knives. I say deal with the culture.
I don't agree with Gopher comparing Brazil to the U.S. Brazil is not a very advanced Western country. You have to compare to countries who are of the same technological level say Germany, England, France, Japan, Korea, and perhaps Poland and Turkey. Brazil may be on its way to be an advanced country, but it is far from there.
There are cultural issues America and Americans must deal with. It is not buy the banning of guns or extreme gun control by some Liberals nor would some of the extreme ideas of the NRA work. America has too extremes hampering sane legislation regarding this issue.
That's my take. |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I am not ANTI-AMERICAN!!!!
I disagree vehemently with the current presidential administration, I dislike, disagree and oppose many of the main social movements (religious being the main one), but I love the entertainment, I love the freedom (though it is now diminished), I love the development, the products, etc.
You're just too sensitive to see that. The sum is greater than it's parts, gopher, I can attack, attack, attack certain elements of America/what's going on in the country, while not hating the greater whole. if I do my PhD, it will almost certainly be in the US. If I were to settle down in a country other than Canada, it would likely be America. I'm not sure I'd ever get citizenship, but I don't hate it, i don;t want to see it destroyed either from outside, or from within, and that is the source of much of my criticism of the United States. That the current trends toward greater evangelism, an economy and major corporations that are in many ways losing the competition (a topic a posted a thread on this week....), along with many other things I view as a detriment to the people of America, and to the entire world.
You are just like the korean friend I told you about. Mentioning anything about korea, good or bad, and he gets defensive and sees it as an attack. State that you want to improve the lives of the people in Korea, and he views it as an attack against the way things are/korea. Say you want to give them more freedom, more time to live and greater wealth, and it's an attack on korean culture. Change Korea in what I just wrote to America, and we have your perspective/position. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
I am not ANTI-AMERICAN!!!!
I disagree vehemently with the current presidential administration, I dislike, disagree and oppose many of the main social movements (religious being the main one), but I love the entertainment, I love the freedom (though it is now diminished), I love the development, the products, etc... |
More of your blah, blah, and blah.
What in the hell does this and the rest of your antiAmerican rant have to do with the Houston shooting incident?
Taking such events, citing them, indeed gleefully citing them, as proof of America's evil culture, citing its foreign policy, etc. -- well that is the very essence of antiAmericanism, pilgrim. |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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adventurer, you make a very fair point. I've done a fair amount of proofing and reviewing of academic papers dealing with psychology and criminal behaviour. Crimes of passion and opportunity are almost always major factors in gun crimes. There was a story someone posted about a shooting in britain outside of a pub, after a guy was thrown out. Throw him out, and he has no gun, then worst you have is maybe a bloody nose and a broken windown. Instead he fired multiple shots, with no one being hurt, but someone else had a gun and the man who was thrown out was shot.
Crimes of passion and 'in the heat of the moment' is exactly why guns should be restricted, but you're right that culture needs to be examined as well. Every day I'm amazed by the level of violence I see at my public school. I work at a low rate middle school, but I know if any of the incidents that i see on the daily basis at my school happened when I was in junior high in Canada, the student would have been suspended, whereas here the teachers literally walk right past it. Can you imagine a Korea with a US gun culture? Either violence would drop dramatically, or the population would be halved!
Personal actions/accountability(means rea) and means/the action(actus reas) are the two parts of a crime. If you can;t control the human side, than control the means side.... |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| freethought wrote: |
I am not ANTI-AMERICAN!!!!
I disagree vehemently with the current presidential administration, I dislike, disagree and oppose many of the main social movements (religious being the main one), but I love the entertainment, I love the freedom (though it is now diminished), I love the development, the products, etc... |
More of your blah, blah, and blah.
What in the hell does this and the rest of your antiAmerican rant have to do with the Houston shooting incident?
Taking such events, citing them, indeed gleefully citing them, as proof of America's evil culture, citing its foreign policy, etc. -- well that is the very essence of antiAmericanism, pilgrim. |
you're an idiot, gopher. you used to try to have discussions, and though I may not have agreed with you, there was at least some merit to what you said, but now everything is anti-american to you, and no one can say anything about America that you don;t view as an attack. Go see if Bill'O needs a side kick on the factor, because you too seem to have the same mentaility.
In america the freedom to criticize, freedom of speech and actions are the cornerstones of what America is supposed to be about. You've just told me I cannot speak my mind, so which one of us is anti-american?
As for the school shootings in texas, this has nothing to do with that, but that's your responsibility. Go back to your first post on this thread. You don't even really talk about the shootings, you talk about brazil and anti-americanism...
I'm going on a hike, enjoy the thread. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Freethought: when you have nothing but harshly-negative points to make about America, when you cynically take advantage of someone's tragedy to self-righteously "criticize" American culture and politics, then you are an antiAmerican snob. No ifs, ands, or buts.
You want to do a doctorate here? Better off in Canada, the land of the smugly morally-superior ones.
Oh yeah, enjoy your hike.  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
adventurer, you make a very fair point. I've done a fair amount of proofing and reviewing of academic papers dealing with psychology and criminal behaviour. Crimes of passion and opportunity are almost always major factors in gun crimes. There was a story someone posted about a shooting in britain outside of a pub, after a guy was thrown out. Throw him out, and he has no gun, then worst you have is maybe a bloody nose and a broken windown. Instead he fired multiple shots, with no one being hurt, but someone else had a gun and the man who was thrown out was shot.
Crimes of passion and 'in the heat of the moment' is exactly why guns should be restricted, but you're right that culture needs to be examined as well. Every day I'm amazed by the level of violence I see at my public school. I work at a low rate middle school, but I know if any of the incidents that i see on the daily basis at my school happened when I was in junior high in Canada, the student would have been suspended, whereas here the teachers literally walk right past it. Can you imagine a Korea with a US gun culture? Either violence would drop dramatically, or the population would be halved!
Personal actions/accountability(means rea) and means/the action(actus reas) are the two parts of a crime. If you can;t control the human side, than control the means side.... |
Yes, but again 40 years ago people shooting up clubs or drivers was not so common. It happened, but people usually used their fists and were less violent. It is easier to address the culture than banning guns.
Are you for banning fire arms? It is part of the U.S. Constitution. It is the 2nd Amendment we're talking about. Do you know how hard it is to change an amendment and how many millions support having a gun.
That is like asking Americans to be communists. That would upset both democrats and republicans. |
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