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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Some US marines devalued Iraqi lives |
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US marines 'devalued Iraqi lives'
Women and children died in the attack in Haditha
The US Marine Corps fostered a climate that devalued Iraqi lives, a US general investigating the 2005 killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha has said.
The report, submitted in 2006 but now declassified, said the US military had ignored signs of "serious misconduct", according to the Washington Post.
A total of 24 men, women and children were killed at Haditha by marines who said they were attacked by insurgents.
A criminal investigation into the incident is continuing.
The Haditha inquiry is just one of a number the US military has been conducting into incidents of alleged unlawful killings by US forces in Iraq.
Gen Bargewell said statements taken from those involved suggested the marines thought "Iraqi civilian lives are not as important as US lives, their deaths are just the cost of doing business, and that the marines need to get 'the job done' no matter what it takes".
However, a local journalist took video footage showing men, women and children shot in their homes. Locals said the marines had gone on a rampage.
The US military instigated investigations and confirmed that 24 Iraqi civilians had died, none of them killed by a roadside bomb.
Three marines have since been charged with unpremeditated murder and four with attempting to cover up the incident.
Gen Bargewell is quoted as saying officers had tried to protect themselves and their troops by wilfully ignoring reports of civilian deaths.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6579511.stm |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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and I would add those who shot indiscriminantly into the crowds as they sped down the road from Jalalalbad in Afghanistan....
I would also not use "some" , would use "many".....this is the MO of military operations, that despite even now the rhetoric, there is the unofficial "gookization" that takes place. It isn't about "equals" but about devaluing the humanity of the other and not just partially but generally and systematically, whoever they are. Even if they are helping. (see the cases of thousands of Iraqis now left out in the cold, many killed and not helped, simply because they"helped" America...).
This is an issue that needs more awareness.....also the reason that invasions like this will always fail. Because the awareness, the subconscious association necessary to devoid those who would help of this "superiority complex", just isn't there. Calamity, death, murder ensues.....anon and anon....A gun does that to ya.....to yahoos, to young men.....they appear and thus, seem and sense they are superior....
Sick what those "kids" did in Jalalabad......even sicker that the suits put them into it and up to it....
DD |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Question does the US behave worse than other nations during war time? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Question does the US behave worse than other nations during war time? |
Worse than Russia? No. Worse than Israel? No. I think the U.S. is better than those two, because the U.S. at least prosecutes people and is more quick to do it. Russia does nothing to prosecute its soldiers when they commit war crimes. Israel lies in between Russia and the U.S. in that area. Britain seems to be on the same level as the U.S. Britain, though, was not in the hot spots like the U.S. |
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demi
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Worse than Russia? No. Worse than Israel? No. I think the U.S. is better than those two |
that's ok then  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| demi wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Worse than Russia? No. Worse than Israel? No. I think the U.S. is better than those two |
that's ok then |
who is better han the US in war time ?
Name two. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| demi wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Worse than Russia? No. Worse than Israel? No. I think the U.S. is better than those two |
that's ok then |
who is better han the US in war time ?
Name two. |
Switzerland and Sweden.  Just being facetious... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| demi wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Worse than Russia? No. Worse than Israel? No. I think the U.S. is better than those two |
that's ok then |
who is better han the US in war time ?
Name two. |
Switzerland and Sweden. Just being facetious... |
Sweden hasn't been to war since the time of the Vikings, perhaps.
That doesn't count. Switzerland hasn't been in a war in a very long time.
The only countries that have been in major wars or conflicts are:
England, France, Germany, Japan, Pakistan, India, the U.S.A., Indonesia,
and Russia.
France, England, and the U.S.A are probably on the same level if we use contemporary history. So the U.S. doesn't appear to come out worse.
However, it doesn't endear the Iraqis to the marines if the commanders don't make sure people are prosecuted, crimes are not covered up etc....
Using the argument that Russia is far worse in Chechnya is not a selling point when you are trying to win over the hearts and minds of the people. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:49 am Post subject: |
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IRT Countries at war:
Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritria, Uganda, Kenya, Chad, Libya..... etc.
cbc |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
IRT Countries at war:
Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritria, Uganda, Kenya, Chad, Libya..... etc.
cbc |
I am aware of those, but we don't have a ton of information from the media about their murders. Anyway, how come we don't get detailed reports about civilians getting killed in those places? Probably because it is scarier for Western reports. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer:
I appreciate and even enjoy most of your threads but this one, perhaps unwittingly, amounts to a cheap shot (the kind ddeubel thrives on).
You set up a false juxtaposition: Haditha (an aberrant, abhorrent crime) with the general attitude of Marines (hardly of this sort) to make your tenuous case.
Even the best police officers develop a certain disdain for the rough communities in which they are forced to operate daily. It's obvious you've never been in the military stationed overseas because when you deal with bad elements (insurgents, terrorists, criminals) every day it is inevitable and therefore natural to develop a certain emotional distance from those you have been assigned to protect.
Think about it, really. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Even the best police officers develop a certain disdain for the rough communities in which they are forced to operate daily. It's obvious you've never been in the military stationed overseas because when you deal with bad elements (insurgents, terrorists, criminals) every day it is inevitable and therefore natural to develop a certain emotional distance from those you have been assigned to protect.
Think about it, really. |
Yeah I guess you've thought about it and have decided much like Gopher......bla bla bla....the world is complex, the world is not easy. It is war. Doesn't matter what they do..........
Bull. Take your old style cop act somewhere else. There are norms of behaviour, even on the battlefield and sorry to say -- the Americans are failing miserably. Take a look at the example of Jalalabad I cited. They fired into a crowd of woman and children, indiscriminantly! Further, let's look at the U.S. military's response to many of these acts. Very unprofessional and always a cover up. The few cases we are aware of, are always after the fact, always because of some extreme leak. So don't even go in the direction. Look at this LA Times review of the incident, how the military even lied after the fact.
Fact is, no cheap shots. Just the truth. Many, many military men and women are given daily hints on how to be "inhuman"........so many have deserted for this very reason. Cheers to them, the brave ones.
DD
| Quote: |
Los Angeles Times
April 14, 2007
An Afghan human rights group asserted today that U.S. Marines acted illegally last month when they fired on scores of civilian vehicles on a busy highway after their convoy was attacked with a car bomb.
Twelve Afghan civilians were killed and dozens of others injured in the March 4 shootings outside the eastern city of Jalalabad. The incident sparked outrage among Afghans and put new pressure on the government of President Hamid Karzai, which has repeatedly appealed to Western forces to be more mindful of civilian safety.
The report by the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission follows a weeks-long investigation by the group, which says it interviewed about 50 witnesses, local authorities and hospital officials. The findings come as the U.S. military weighs whether criminal charges should be brought against the Marines involved.
The incident began after a suicide bomber rammed an explosives-filled van into the Marines' convoy. After the attack, the convoy raced away, firing at pedestrians and vehicles along a 10-mile stretch of the road, the main highway between Kabul, the capital, and Jalalabad.
The U.S. military said at the time that the Marines came under fire from assailants as they fled the bombing. But witnesses said no one appeared to be shooting toward the troops and that reckless fire was directed at civilians who were miles from the scene of the attack.
There were no Marine casualties in the bombing. The dead and injured Afghan civilians included a number of women, children and elderly, Afghan officials said.
"In failing to distinguish between civilians and legitimate military targets, the [Marines] employed indiscriminate force," the report said. "Their actions thus constitute a serious violation of international humanitarian law."
The human rights group also alleged that American troops removed spent ammunition and other evidence from the scene soon after the shootings, which hampered Afghan authorities' efforts to reconstruct the sequence of events.
The U.S. military's own initial investigation concluded that the Marines, members of a special forces unit based at Camp Lejeune, N.C., had used excessive force in responding to the attack on their convoy. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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ddeubel:
I realize your analytical reasoning skills are limited to counting out pennies for bubble gum in the dimestore but if you take 150,000 American soldiers and divide by the number of demonstrated incidents of reckless, violent behavior, what percentage do you get?
Remember: I'm referring to corroborated evidence, not hearsay.
FYI: I've never condoned or tried to conceal my contempt for anyone in uniform who intentionally violates the U.S. military code of conduct, which you should know if you read most of my threads.
Don't strain yourself doing the math. Maybe get one of your kindergarten hagwon kids to help you. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Remember: I'm referring to corroborated evidence, not hearsay. |
You missed my point -- but I never expected you to use higher reasoning skills. Bluntly, my point was that the military condones and covers up umptold numbers of incidents, brutal violence against ordinary Iraqis. So take that as hearsay or not, I believe those on the ground, Iraqis. Even the puppet Malaki, squeeked that same line....
Questions of morality, of such seriousness are not to be argued or brushed off regardless of any numbers/quantifiability. Argue the cases, don't be an ass and apologize for a government that prepares young men to kill Iraqis while at the same time asking them to "help" these poor unfortunates......what incredulous double speak.
You said, "intentionally violates"? What does that mean???? It forgives all sorts of abuses just because they are done under some kind of duress or because they are in a "war" situation etc.....lunacy and you are apologizing for murderers and thiefs and the worst kind - just because they are in uniform. What the hell does a uniform do??? Superheroes are fiction and I also remember so well Pascal's lines about the judge and his wig........it is all about authority, not right or wrong...
By the way, my hagwon kiddies are doing fine without me.
DD |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
[
By the way, my hagwon kiddies are doing fine without me.
DD |
As could we...  |
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