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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| tell us all what you think of move up getting lots of free money so they can put up adds against any one they don't like. |
just like others have been doing for years  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| ...there are greater issues at hand. What needs to be heard is that the intangible issues ARE the issue... |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| How other nations see the US... |
Bad idea to conduct our politics according to this measuring stick. Other nations have their own agendas and these are not necessarily people we ought to be aiming to please -- particularly given that we can hardly count most of them as friends or even friendly.
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| ...who is running the country, us, or the political parties and PACs...? |
Our republican democracy functions. Needs some tweaking. But it is not as you implicitly claim with this hysteria.
You have not read Ya-ta Boy's thread on this. You are clearly a democrat on this issue. Another very bad idea.
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| ...whether we are perceived as legitimate standard bearers for the rule of law, for democracy, for freedom... |
This gets to the heart of your and others' wild radicalism. You bought into Wilsonian Idealism hook, line, and sinker. And you have grown cynical and bitter that American foreign affairs do not correspond to Wilsonian ideals like spreading democracy and "freedom."
But Wilson and those who followed him, namely JFK, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and now W. Bush above all others, have done far more harm than good. Wilson, as one historian once said, would do anything to help you, and he indeed might have helped many, had he only stopped preaching to them and got off their backs.
Things would have been far better had realists like Washington and indeed most presidents who served the early republic, FDR, Eisenhower, Nixon, and H.W. Bush and Powell predominated in American foreign affairs.
I am afraid that you are angry about ideals that some articulated but were never real. Democracy and "freedom" cannot work at all in many places in the world, for one thing. And it is not our business to force it, for another. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| Quote: |
| tell us all what you think of move up getting lots of free money so they can put up adds against any one they don't like. |
just like others have been doing for years |
I understand but if one side can not take cooperate money but the other side can do PACS don't you think that would be sort of one sided? |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
This gets to the heart of your and others' wild radicalism. You bought into Wilsonian Idealism hook, line, and sinker. And you have grown cynical and bitter that American foreign affairs do not correspond to Wilsonian ideals like spreading democracy and "freedom."
But Wilson and those who followed him, namely JFK, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and now W. Bush above all others, have done far more harm than good. Wilson, as one historian once said, would do anything to help you, and he indeed might have helped many, had he only stopped preaching to them and got off their backs.
Things would have been far better had realists like Washington and indeed most presidents who served the early republic, FDR, Eisenhower, Nixon, and H.W. Bush and Powell predominated in American foreign affairs. |
Oh man, I've got another wild radical for ya!
| Barack Obama wrote: |
We all know that these are not the best of times for America�s reputation in the world. We know what the war in Iraq has cost us in lives and treasure, in influence and respect. We have seen the consequences of a foreign policy based on a flawed ideology, and a belief that tough talk can replace real strength and vision.
Many around the world are disappointed with our actions. And many in our own country have come to doubt either our wisdom or our capacity to shape events beyond our borders. Some have even suggested that America�s time has passed.
But while we know what we have lost as a consequence of this tragic war, I also know what I have found in my travels over the past two years.
In an old building in Ukraine, I saw test tubes filled with anthrax and the plague lying virtually unlocked and unguarded � dangers we were told could only be secured with America�s help.
On a trip to the Middle East, I met Israelis and Palestinians who told me that peace remains a distant hope without the promise of American leadership.
At a camp along the border of Chad and Darfur, refugees begged for America to step in and help stop the genocide that has taken their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters.
And along the crowded streets of Kenya, I met throngs of children who asked if they�d ever get the chance to visit that magical place called America.
So I reject the notion that the American moment has passed. I dismiss the cynics who say that this new century cannot be another when, in the words of President Franklin Roosevelt, we lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. |
Crazy stuff! |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| But it is not as you implicitly claim with this hysteria. |
I suggest strongly you stop misrepresenting my comments. If you don't know the meaning of hysteria, look it up. If you do, shut your lying mouth. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| pathetic ... talk about political b.s. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| It is not expedient nor is it good for the Democrats to indict Cheney, even though it might be just. |
And, that, as they say, is that. And that is wrong. I care not a whit for the whether it's good for the Dems. This is about what is good for America. Notice I have not one time argued against any of the potential issues. Not once. They are obvious. Why state the obvious? What I have stated over and over is that there are greater issues at hand. What needs to be heard is that the intangible issues ARE the issue: How other nations see the US; who is running the country, us, or the political parties and PACs?; whether we are perceived as legitimate standard bearers for the rule of law, for democracy, for freedom...
If the Congress and the people do nothing, that is exactly what they will get in the end. |
I should have said, 'It is not expedient nor is it good for the country for the Dems to indict Cheney, even though it might be just for Cheney and even the country.'
The Republican system (take care, I'm not talking about the GOP, but about the Republic) in the US is set up so that political accusations have no consequences outside of the political sphere. IOW, if a President is impeached for ordering the murder of a US citizen, he will lose power should the process find him guilty. He will then have to be prosecuted later in a criminal court.
The impeachment process does not lead to a criminal conviction, it can lead only as far as the removal of office of he/she whom is impeached.
Justice has no place in the process, and it was designed as such, because the rigors of a criminal trial are much higher than what the founders thought was good or expedient to remove someone from office who was negligent or unfit.
I have said this before, EFLTrainer. If you want justice, try Bush or Cheney for a crime in a criminal court. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| ...there are greater issues at hand. What needs to be heard is that the intangible issues ARE the issue... |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| How other nations see the US... |
Bad idea to conduct our politics according to this measuring stick. Other nations have their own agendas and these are not necessarily people we ought to be aiming to please -- particularly given that we can hardly count most of them as friends or even friendly. |
Learn to read. Nowhere did I say conduct our politics according to anyone's measuring stick. Can you not engage in any discussion without misrepresenting others' words? Childish, is it not?
I said, quite clearly, "how others see us." I did not say, "how others want us to conduct our policy."
| Quote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| ...who is running the country, us, or the political parties and PACs...? |
Our republican democracy functions. Needs some tweaking. But it is not as you implicitly claim with this hysteria.
You have not read Ya-ta Boy's thread on this. You are clearly a democrat on this issue. Another very bad idea. |
It is not hysteria to state that our nation is being undermined from within by people whose agenda is unpatriotic. A majority of Americans are against this administration, against its Iraq policy, against its undermining of the Constitution, etc. You are the wing nut. You support a corrupt administration.
Saying our democracy functions is a bit like saying a car functions, but only in first gear and reverse.
Republican democracy? Surely you speak not of the party? Or, did you have a rare moment of cogent thought?
| Quote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| ...whether we are perceived as legitimate standard bearers for the rule of law, for democracy, for freedom... |
This gets to the heart of your and others' wild radicalism. You bought into Wilsonian Idealism hook, line, and sinker. And you have grown cynical and bitter that American foreign affairs do not correspond to Wilsonian ideals like spreading democracy and "freedom." |
| Quote: |
| But Wilson... blah, blah, blah... ...predominated in American foreign affairs. |
Whole lot of nothing in that. Are you trying to say we should not be interfering in other's affairs? Well, then we agree. Well, if you weren't will-o-the-wind college twit. Who knows what you'll say tomorrow, Sir Demrepublicrat.
And did you say spreading democracy is Wilsonian and I'm upset Bush isn't doing that? Are you retarded? Jesus! Will you argue any point just to attempt to find some shred to attempt to paint me in a way you think might offend me? Are you truly that much of a fool?
Bush's entire philosophy is infused with the spreading of democracy!! His supposed ultimate goal is the spreading o democracy across the Middle East! He loves nation building and believes in it. I do not and never have. We have NO right to transmute other nations into clones of the U.S.
You are a joke.
Getting out of Iraq is wild radicalism? Restoring Habeus Corpus is wild radicalism? Impeaching the most corrupt president this nation has ever known is wild radicalism? Standing against presidentially-sanctioned torture, which breaks American and international law (treaties are the law of the land, son), is wild radicalism?
You're a damned fool. You spout as much bullshit as BillO, himself.
An intelligent American would call you the radical: you are for the loss of habeus corpus; are for torture; are for Iraq; are for wiretaps. That is radical. It is radically neo-con. (Notice I don't say conservative. There is nothing conservative about breaking the law and treason.)
Yes, yes, yes, I know. You will say you never said any of those things. But you did and you do. Torture is against the law. You say it never happened. Wiretaps are against the law. You say it's OK, not impeachable (and have yet to explain WHY NOT.) You may say whatever you wish, but what do you DO? You do what you can to mislead as many as you can to help preserve the republican agenda and machine (that you voted for) by making blatantly false statements about the opposition and claiming, without references and without citations, their statements to be untenable.
| Quote: |
| I am afraid that you are angry about ideals that some articulated but were never real. Democracy and "freedom" cannot work at all in many places in the world, for one thing. And it is not our business to force it, for another. |
Again, Bush is doing th nation building, but I am the one who wants it?? Are you out of your mind?
You're a damned fool and liar. Now my "anger" stems from democracy NOT being spread? What, it's not my wife now? No matter how many times I have laid out my reasons and the trajectory of how I came to regard this cadre as immensely dangerous, you continue to lie about it. This is the only way you can allow yourself to believe you have actually stood up to me. You cannot win an argument, so you call down the straw man.
I'm angry about my wife though she died long before Bush was ever on my radar? I'm angry about my wife though her death was a life affirming process? You're a goddamned fool, and one of the few I have ever known here to take personal background info and try to use it to smear your opponent. You are WEAK.
Stand like a man behind your arguments. Answer a question like a man and with support, or shut up.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to commit heresy here and say that Bush is right in that we need to bring democracy 'to our little brown brothers'.  AND I'm going to say that Wilson was not wrong when he said we need to make the world safe for democracy. 
I will however, return to the fold and say that present American foreign policy is totally benighted in that it doesn't come close to understanding how to achieve the goal. George Kennan got famous because he presented the containment policy that ultimately defeated another aggressive political philosophy. In brief, it stated that you don't need to directly confront the enemy. You trim it at the extremities and wait for it to implode. That is what we need today. Kind of a Chinese long-term strategy. (I think the neo-cons have been watching tooooo much TV and want a resolution in 30 minutes.) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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I fail to see what business we have worrying about how others run their own nations. The only exception should ever be humanitarian, and even then it's a sticky wicket. Two sets of citizens disagreeing and combating each other: where is OUR agenda?
As much as the Bush Cadre have debilitated our nation, I would not support any other nation taking action against them. It is for us to do within the bounds of our nation's laws. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I have said this before, EFLTrainer. If you want justice, try Bush or Cheney for a crime in a criminal court. |
1. An impeachment and conviction would lay excellent groundwork for a criminal prosecution.
2. Again, the primary issue is restoration of the rule of law and America as a legitimate leader. Neither of those are served by politics as usual, yet are far more important in the end. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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He knows I am neither hysterical nor radical. It is his straw man brought out in every debate because he cannot meet me on the merits. Now, or ever. He went with the insults a year-and-a-half ago, and has never stopped, yet claims it is and was I who did so.
He reaps what he sows, and it is bitter. Very bitter.
I very clearly demonstrated this with the posting of the Iacocca thread. None of the neo-con wanna-be's had an answer for why Iacocca is NOT a hysterical radical while I and others here are.
He has no standing until he stops using the straw man as his only defense for his positions.
Virtually everything I have said on these forums about Bush, et al., is echoed by a majority of Americans. (Even impeachment has been polled by a majority as proper if certain facts were to be shown to be true.)
He has no standing.
| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
This gets to the heart of your and others' wild radicalism. You bought into Wilsonian Idealism hook, line, and sinker. And you have grown cynical and bitter that American foreign affairs do not correspond to Wilsonian ideals like spreading democracy and "freedom."
But Wilson and those who followed him, namely JFK, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and now W. Bush above all others, have done far more harm than good. Wilson, as one historian once said, would do anything to help you, and he indeed might have helped many, had he only stopped preaching to them and got off their backs.
Things would have been far better had realists like Washington and indeed most presidents who served the early republic, FDR, Eisenhower, Nixon, and H.W. Bush and Powell predominated in American foreign affairs. |
Oh man, I've got another wild radical for ya!
| Barack Obama wrote: |
We all know that these are not the best of times for America�s reputation in the world. We know what the war in Iraq has cost us in lives and treasure, in influence and respect. We have seen the consequences of a foreign policy based on a flawed ideology, and a belief that tough talk can replace real strength and vision.
Many around the world are disappointed with our actions. And many in our own country have come to doubt either our wisdom or our capacity to shape events beyond our borders. Some have even suggested that America�s time has passed.
But while we know what we have lost as a consequence of this tragic war, I also know what I have found in my travels over the past two years.
In an old building in Ukraine, I saw test tubes filled with anthrax and the plague lying virtually unlocked and unguarded � dangers we were told could only be secured with America�s help.
On a trip to the Middle East, I met Israelis and Palestinians who told me that peace remains a distant hope without the promise of American leadership.
At a camp along the border of Chad and Darfur, refugees begged for America to step in and help stop the genocide that has taken their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters.
And along the crowded streets of Kenya, I met throngs of children who asked if they�d ever get the chance to visit that magical place called America.
So I reject the notion that the American moment has passed. I dismiss the cynics who say that this new century cannot be another when, in the words of President Franklin Roosevelt, we lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. |
Crazy stuff! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Oh man, I've got another wild radical for ya...! |
Gang ah jee, Barack Obama's stock just went down.
| Barack Obama wrote: |
| So I reject the notion that the American moment has passed. I dismiss the cynics who say that this new century cannot be another when, in the words of President Franklin Roosevelt, we lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. |
Crazy stuff indeed. |
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