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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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It's only ok to express opinions about Islam that DD finds acceptable.....
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Though this guy doesn't fit the definition to a tea, he still should be prosecuted so that others in society are told it is not right to grossly categorize others based on "religion".
I have studied the history of pogroms throughout the last 200 years and they are all of the same type.....first small newspaper articles in local papers, then in the national papers, then rallys, then people in the street burning down the Jews house screaming -- "they poison our water! they kiss the devil at night! they steal our money! they have sex with many people! They are corrupting our children! [and these are all claims that even happened in the 20th century, even in Britain and where Jews were killed, jailed].
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ok you've studied pogroms...well all said and finished..they all involved newspaper articles and humans.....good night! If you were really concerned about quotes like the above you'd be on here complaining everyday about the Middle East where things are printed in the papers all the time....Nope you are on here screaming "Islamophobe"
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| I support his right to have aired that video even if I didn't like it that much. If we restrict people like him from airing such opinions, I think that is going way too far. |
I agree....the man's choice of words is poor but prosecution no way!! |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| His ass should be prosecuted, as an example for all Brits. Here is something off a British government website...... |
How dare he have negative opinions about Islam! Always amusing the way liberal twits like yourself so quickly reveal your loathing for democracy and free thought.
By the way, if someone can be prosecuted for saying a few nasty things about Muslims, when will you be campaigning for the banning of the Koran? After all, there's plenty of hate in there. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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UK: Terror arrests swoop 6 suspects, including Abu Izzadeen: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007190129,00.html
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| "The six were allegedly captured on tape by a special Metropolitan Police unit set up to nail preachers of hate. |
 !!
'ave it! |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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ddeubel wrote:
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| I would hope there would be more forthright dialogue and that those with criticisms would aim them at the appropriate place -- extremists and fundamentalists (of all religious persuasions). |
I realize you proudly wave the banner of cultural relativism but I'll try once again to get you to be honest about Islam.
While the number of actual terrorists is tiny among Muslims, the number who assist them financially is much larger and the number who support or otherwise sympathize with their cause is greater still.
And what about all the mullahs who constantly preach hate? Show me the same among Christian and Jewish religious leaders? I mean, show me the hundreds of rabble rousers in their midst?
You can't and therein is the justification for the claim that Islam is in a very bad way. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| If there is no more rationale thought behind your beliefs other than you were born with them, then you are open to ridicule. If you never question your faith I can not respect you. I have many beliefs, I would not expect someone to go to jail for disagreeing, misinterpreting or making generalizations. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
ddeubel wrote:
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| I would hope there would be more forthright dialogue and that those with criticisms would aim them at the appropriate place -- extremists and fundamentalists (of all religious persuasions). |
I realize you proudly wave the banner of cultural relativism but I'll try once again to get you to be honest about Islam.
While the number of actual terrorists is tiny among Muslims, the number who assist them financially is much larger and the number who support or otherwise sympathize with their cause is greater still.
And what about all the mullahs who constantly preach hate? Show me the same among Christian and Jewish religious leaders? I mean, show me the hundreds of rabble rousers in their midst?
You can't and therein is the justification for the claim that Islam is in a very bad way. |
Ddeubelagent assists evil under the guise of trendy cultural relativism. Like Bigbird, I'm not sure if he really believes the spam he scribbles. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ddeubelagent assists evil under the guise of trendy cultural relativism. Like Bigbird, I'm not sure if he really believes the spam he scribbles |
I don't know..Walter Duranty believed the crap he wrote.... |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| ok you've studied pogroms...well all said and finished..they all involved newspaper articles and humans.....good night! If you were really concerned about quotes like the above you'd be on here complaining everyday about the Middle East where things are printed in the papers all the time....Nope you are on here screaming "Islamophobe" |
First off, I have been on here voicing criticisms against "Islamic " nations but not wholesale and ad hoc, but rather where they are merited, as gross violations of basic, universal human rights. Not frothing at their religion but rather criticizing the legal norms and protections of these "states" [not religions - Islamic states differing fundamentally in their protections of citizens. Egypt just one complex example]. But I do the same with Russia/china and elsewhere, raise my voice.
I also have nothing against prosecuting mullahs, imams who stir up and breed hate. No problem. But where I do see a difference is that we are dealing with "minorities" in our Western nations. As the late great Trudeau was fond of saying -- we can only be judged by how we treat and protect these minorities....... So we rightfully take caution regarding anything which castigates and punishes and bullies and wrongfully socially ostracizes any minority. If you don't agree -- fine. But then, I must say you don't want a civil society or one built on norms which protect people no matter their race, size, intelligence, pocketbook, looks, heart, status, sex, creed........ You don't want a society that only judges ACTS but rather you want to jump up and down and label, identify, condemn all under one big label.....WRONG.
McGarette, -- you wouldn't know cultural relativism even if you shaaat it. I am not being anything such. We had this discussion and I suggest you look up the thread from long before your entrance. Search for Geertz or go directly to his anti anti cultural relativism and then we might begin to talk.....in any case, he states my case.
DD |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: |
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You don't want a society that only judges ACTS but rather you want to jump up and down and label, identify, condemn all under one big label.....WRONG.
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Classic...complain about people who make generalizations about religion but you can't even pick out the odious beliefs in Islam that have been there since it's inception....Islam has been a political religion since the beginning..But I guess we should look at all the differences of the middle eastern state yet not the thing that they most have in common....namely their beliefs that Muhammed was above criticism...... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I think people who engage in generalizing so easily about people of any religion are promoting bigotry against that people. Is that fair? I don't really think so. I am careful about generalizing Koreans or any racial group. I may point out to some problems that need to be fixed in the society, but I am not interested in being a bigot. I don't want that on my conscience.
As postfundie said, you can take quotes from any religion and find something bad. You can do that with the Hindu Veddas that I became familiar with when I studied about India, you have the TORAH which Noam Chomsky said sounds genocidal in some cases (wiping out the various tribes in the name of God), and the Muslim Quran to a secular person may be viewed as having a moody God who is pleased with Christians and Jews one day and very angry on another day.
As far as terrorism, Steve said a minority engage in it. That is fair to say.
However, they get support from another group via funding. That still shows no empirical reasoning that the majority are backing terrorists.
As far as I know most people in Jordan do not care for the terrorists in Iraq or Saudi Arabia.
People forget that people interpret religion based on the reality of their current political situation. Judaism has been interpreted in a way to suit the realities of Zionism. Islam has been manipulated to suit the realities of the Middle for the past 100 years or so. It is natural. How about changing the picture and the present instead of acting like people all literally follow religious books like the Borg in Star Trek. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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ddeubel:
Clifford Geertz of thick description fame? The same who authored a text with an anthropologist doing fieldwork while sitting next to the hut of a black tribesman? Yeah, tell me more.
The inescapable fact is that Islam today tolerates terrorists and their enablers in their midst. That cannot be said for any other mainstream religion. Period. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
ddeubel:
Clifford Geertz of thick description fame? The same who authored a text with an anthropologist doing fieldwork while sitting next to the hut of a black tribesman? Yeah, tell me more.
The inescapable fact is that Islam today tolerates terrorists and their enablers in their midst. That cannot be said for any other mainstream religion. Period. |
Yes, it is a very escapable fact. Some Muslims are tolerating terrorists or terrorism. You are maligning 1 plus billion believers of a religion as enablers of terrorism. This is not borne by any scientific facts. You said it is a fact. Prove it. Based on what? The proofs point otherwise with the crackdowns in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Morrocco. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| It is natural. How about changing the picture and the present instead of acting like people all literally follow religious books like the Borg in Star Trek |
what about the great number of people who actually do this....I grew up evangelical and belive me there is a lot of non-thinking going on....Can we do blahlbahh...? oh no what does the bible say...?? and they do this for every friggin decision.....there are so many muslims who do the same thing....What does Islam say??? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
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| It is natural. How about changing the picture and the present instead of acting like people all literally follow religious books like the Borg in Star Trek |
what about the great number of people who actually do this....I grew up evangelical and belive me there is a lot of non-thinking going on....Can we do blahlbahh...? oh no what does the bible say...?? and they do this for every friggin decision.....there are so many muslims who do the same thing....What does Islam say??? |
You don't need to talk to me about Baptists. I dealt with Baptists a great deal. Yes, a lot of them are similar to some Muslims and push aggressive wars in the Middle East, many had blind support for Bush, despite his short-comings, because they were focused on single issues like gay marriage and abortion, and couldn't see through Bush playing them on the gay marriage issue, because anyone thinking with common sense would have known a constitutional amendment was bassically untenable.
What does Islam say? It's a religion. It is like saying what Christianity says. What it says to a Catholic or to a Baptist is different or your individual American. It is easier to look at culture rather than simply say the Bible or the Quran, because every country and, in the case, of the U.S. every region is different. There is far more conformity going and non-thinking perhaps in Arabia but not on the coast.
You have people who are more concerned with money, making business transactions, enjoying the night life and smoking their water pipes and playing cards, but will do their traditional stuff. That is my impression from having been there. Of course, it is culturally taboo there to say you are extremely secular unless you are with a very secular crowd say in Amman, Jordan. But you will have people who will for example smoke during ramadan and get chided by their family. I knew a fellow who did that. It is not that black-and-white anymore than it is among Baptists.
Anyway, if Islam was so much adhered to everywhere then why is alcohol served in Damascus, Amman, and Tunisia? If most Muslims support terrorism sponsored by Al Qaeda (not talking about Hamas which is somewhat different) as Steve claimed in Jordan or Damascus than where are the huge objections to alcohol. Certainly, the 6% Christian minority in that country is not keeping Heineken in business by themselves. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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The trouble is the few are leading the majority. The extremists say that liberal democracy isn't good for muslims and the rest seem to bow their heads and accept that proposition.
Ex muslim attacked.
Music banned.
full body covering required.
etc.
These are being pushed by the minority, but the masses seem to accept it and so it seems to be non muslims who are fighting against extremism more than muslims.
Many of us have muslim friends or had them, many of us have visited muslim countries. We all know that not all muslims are the same, but the extreme views are the ones being pushed at the moment not the moderate ones.
Thats the problem today, we are fighting against extremism when it should be the muslim majority and not the non muslims. It allows us to be seen as the enemy, when we are just the more open minded at times. |
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