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How Many Former Christians?
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Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:21 am Post subject:

flakfizer wrote:

I believe you came on here and posted as you did with the other thread in mind-the one with a guy who murdered someone, believes the aliens are coming for us and thinks his own writings will be in the Bible. This is not one of those difficult cases to determine.

But it is. The overall point I meant to make was that it's equally as difficult as determining which brand of Christianity is the 'right' one. They can't all be right can they? Catholic, Protestant, Russian orthodox, unaffiliated Christians etc. there's so many and they all have their own version. Now you might admit that a Catholic considers a Mormon to be a 'real' Christian, but then by what criteria? That they read the Bible and believe Jesus was the son of god? Then how can you then exclude the guy from that article (who called himself a Christian)? Just because he believed in aliens? That's not good enough...

ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:56 am Post subject:

Ok heathens roll up, roll up for your instant conversion. It converted me! Instant Conversion Pt1 Instant Conversion Pt2

Xian

Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:30 am Post subject:

contrarian wrote:

I'm an active Mormon. The Evangelicals tell me I ain't Christian. That ain't very Christian of them.

Rolling Eyes

Did I miss any sarcasm in this comment or (if you were serious), do you consider Mormonism to be in the same category as the evangelical denominations? (Not stirring, genuine question for you there).

eamo

Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:52 am Post subject:

ED209 wrote:

Like that rash I had, it spread, got itchy, then went away.
I still had to put up with this

but thank god not this

That huge woman in the second link is mentally ill!!!

I'm always amazed how serious religion is in America. Outside of America it has become a kind of minority thing and not really an issue for most people. But in the States!! Wow! It's frightening. And extreme christianity seems to be on the increase.

Xian

Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:26 am Post subject:

RACETRAITOR wrote:

Xian wrote:

Of course, no one is born a Christian. I was 26 when I converted. The biases come after conversion. I am not speaking as someone who has never known other ways of living.

Kermo was joking - Embarassed

Wow, that's pretty late to start believing. What made you do that, and what did you believe before?

Yes, it was late Very Happy

I will start with the before part of your question. Before my belief was: Money and women and alcohol. They can satisfy me. I am not sure what religous bracket to put that one in. I was an average Hedonist who was out to satisfy all my base desires. Plenty of alcohol, out pubbing each week, seeking after what so many other people are seeking after on those nights out, involved in a few other vices and having an increasing interest in the occult until the time I made my commitment.
I had no religous upbringing. I only ever had one extremely young parent and they grew up with hypocritical people abusing others in the name of God (at least that is the image I get from what I have learnt) so naturally they had an aversion to christianity. To this day there is negativity towards my faith because of what their experience of 'christianity' has been. I cannot reject God though based upon what people do (even if they are / think they are Christians) [By their fruit you shall know them]. This is frustrating to someone like myself because I naturally want them to believe. I want them them (and others) to know that even if someone wears a black and white priest outfit, carries a Bible and lives in a church, they are not representing the heart of God when they do such things. I don't believe in God based upon what others have said and done, but I can understand why people don't believe for the very same reasons.

The reason I converted:
I started attending a catholic church for a while because I met a nice girl (a catholic by habit and lifestyle only), not for purposes of faith. When the girl went, so in my life, church went also. As the saying goes, 'the penny never dropped' for me, it was an intellectual experience rather than a spiritual experience, but I did believe in something, but even then, I would be in clubs, drinking and I never changed. But it did something within me though. After a few years I kept having this feeling within me to go to church. . . . I did nothing about it, but one night on the town some nice girls invited me to their church. God wasn't my motive, the people I would meet there were of interest though. I went, the music was great and modern (not like the catholic church), there were heaps of younger people, pretty looking girls (remember, I wasn't there for God). They had great social events also, so I thought I would go again.
The following week all perspective changed and so did my motives. This is when I commited to God also. Up until then I felt normal inside, but then it was like a light went on inside me. I didn't feel like my life was dark before, but after that moment I saw my lifestyle in a new perspective. My life before then was just an endless cycle of alcohol, emptiness, material objects etc. They were all carnal / material things which never maintain long term satisfaction. I could see just how pointless this was, but I also felt like something in me changed and that my whole life would go in a different direction from that point in time (and it did).
That was also the time I started to read the Bible and pray. Before then I couldn't survive a few lines of the Bible, but then it just became interesting to me. I could understand parts of it now. Really, the Bible is an interesting read.
That day I believed, it was like I came alive again. Often Christians use that expression and I guess it is a hard one to explain to someone who does't believe, but I really understand it now. I know not everyone believes we have a spirit, but I realized it at that point. It is like the spirit was hiding in the dark, when I believed, it came out into the light. It was as if it was dead, but it came to life. I didn't want to live like I did before anymore. Not because I was brainwashed, (26 years of hedonism doesn't dissappear in 90 minutes), but because my heart changed at that time (maybe I should say my spirit came alive at that time).

So becoming a Christian wasn't a result of some spiritual journey through various faiths (but I do have a strong awareness of most other faiths, occult, freemasonry etc); I didn't look for it, but I firmly believe God used door knocking cult groups, a catholic girl and a few other experiences to open my heart up to Him.

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:32 am Post subject:

contrarian wrote:

I'm an active Mormon. The Evangelicals tell me I ain't Christian. That ain't very Christian of them.

Turn-about is fair play.
Joseph Smith allegedly received a message from God declaring all the other denominations to be an "abomination."

Furthermore, ex-Mormons tell us that the secret wedding ceremony contains a scene in which Satan hires a Christian minister to preach his lies.

Saxiif

Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:46 am Post subject:

contrarian wrote:

I'm an active Mormon. The Evangelicals tell me I ain't Christian. That ain't very Christian of them.

Rolling Eyes

If I was part of a group I wouldn't want people who had angels named "Moroni" in my group either Laughing

Let alone people whose "holy" book is riddled with grammatical and usage mistakes.

I grew up going to very liberal churches (United Church of Christ mostly). Basically take the Bible and cut out anything the least bit unpleasant and you've got it. Not a bad religion as far as they go, nothing but trying to be nice to people and talking about how Jesus loves everyone. No gay bashing etc.

Then I got around to actually reading the Bible and I saw what a horrific compilation of barbarity the Old Testament was and I decided that the liberal Christian way of looking at Christianity was fundamentally dishonest (basically picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to believe solely according to which bits were nice and friendly) and there was no way in hell I could go for Biblical literalism (I'm sorry but a God that commands bears to eat 40 children for teasing a bald guy is not good by any sane definition) so I've been an agnostic atheist ever since.

The Bible makes for wonderful anti-Christian propaganda. I have a very hard time understanding how anyone who actually sits down and reads the whole thing can remain Christian.

Recently I've been reading a large compilation of Gnostic and other texts of that sort, mostly from the Nag Hammadi codex (am big history geek) called The Gnostic Bible. Very interesting view on things, avoids a lot of the standard Christian paradoxes and makes for great reading. Highly recommend.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:52 am Post subject:

Saxiif wrote:

Then I got around to actually reading the Bible and I saw what a horrific compilation of barbarity the Old Testament was and I decided that the liberal Christian way of looking at Christianity was fundamentally dishonest (basically picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to believe solely according to which bits were nice and friendly) and there was no way in hell I could go for Biblical literalism (I'm sorry but a God that commands bears to eat 40 children for teasing a bald guy is not good by any sane definition) so I've been an agnostic atheist ever since.

The Bible makes for wonderful anti-Christian propaganda. I have a very hard time understanding how anyone who actually sits down and reads the whole thing can remain Christian.

Recently I've been reading a large compilation of Gnostic and other texts of that sort, mostly from the Nag Hammadi codex (am big history geek) called The Gnostic Bible. Very interesting view on things, avoids a lot of the standard Christian paradoxes and makes for great reading. Highly recommend.

I've been interested in what the Gnostic gospels have to offer, and whether they augment or castrate the bits that I've come to know and love about the Bible.

I don't blame you for being turned off by the Bible (particularly the Old Testament) and it's interesting that you would recommend it as anti-Christian propaganda. I often hear that the Bible is a tool for soothing and subduing the masses, and you're absolutely right-- it is nothing of the sort. However, since you're a history buff, you'll know that translations can be misleading. We had a discussion here on Dave's just the other day about the Elisha story, and the word "children" is elsewhere translated as "youths", which would turn the situation around quite a bit, especially in a group of those numbers.

I'm not a fan of picking-and-choosing, but with a little scholarship it's not necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I do take the Bible seriously, if not always literally (i.e., 7-day creation, "the sun stood still", etc.)

Smurfette

Joined: 21 Jun 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:13 am Post subject:

Was a christian for 25 years, it got too simple. I felt like I was stuck in kindergarten. Always being taught A, B and C....and I was wondering about Z. So I did the church a favor and stopped bothering them with my questions. Went solo for a year or so. Then realized all this time I was just talking to myself.....

oskinny1

Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Location: Right behind you!

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:13 am Post subject:

I was a good Catholic boy until I went to the largest baptist university in the world. There I was told that I wasn't a Christian because A) Catholics aren't Christians and B) I watched the Simpsons. Also had a group of missionaries threaten to kick my a$$ because I told them to leave a friend they were harassing alone. Christians didn't seem to want me and I am all the better for it.

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:31 am Post subject:

Saxiif wrote:

(I'm sorry but a God that commands bears to eat 40 children for teasing a bald guy is not good by any sane definition.)

Thanks, Saxiif!
I've never heard that story before, so I looked it up.
It's in 2 Kings 2:23-24:

Quote:

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

People talk about me being excessively sensitive, but I don't mind my students teasing me for being bald.
They feel my bald head and then run from me.
I chase them, and when I catch them, I respond in kind by feeling their hair.
This game is always accompanied by continuous giggling.

I'll be careful not to curse the students in the name of the Lord.
I would hate for two she-bears to come and tear them up.

Last edited by tomato on Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:30 am; edited 1 time in total

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:45 am Post subject:

Besides, what was a prophet doing cursing someone in the name of the Lord?
I must be misunderstanding Exodus 20: 7:

Quote:

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.

ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:04 am Post subject:

kermo wrote:

We had a discussion here on Dave's just the other day about the Elisha story, and the word "children" is elsewhere translated as "youths", which would turn the situation around quite a bit, especially in a group of those numbers.

Yeah, youths_****'em. They should have known better. Why weren't they at school?

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject:

Xian wrote:

The reason I converted:
I started attending a catholic church for a while because I met a nice girl (a catholic by habit and lifestyle only), not for purposes of faith. When the girl went, so in my life, church went also. As the saying goes, 'the penny never dropped' for me, it was an intellectual experience rather than a spiritual experience, but I did believe in something, but even then, I would be in clubs, drinking and I never changed. But it did something within me though. After a few years I kept having this feeling within me to go to church. . . . I did nothing about it, but one night on the town some nice girls invited me to their church. God wasn't my motive, the people I would meet there were of interest though. I went, the music was great and modern (not like the catholic church), there were heaps of younger people, pretty looking girls (remember, I wasn't there for God). They had great social events also, so I thought I would go again.
The following week all perspective changed and so did my motives. This is when I commited to God also. Up until then I felt normal inside, but then it was like a light went on inside me. I didn't feel like my life was dark before, but after that moment I saw my lifestyle in a new perspective. My life before then was just an endless cycle of alcohol, emptiness, material objects etc. They were all carnal / material things which never maintain long term satisfaction. I could see just how pointless this was, but I also felt like something in me changed and that my whole life would go in a different direction from that point in time (and it did).
That was also the time I started to read the Bible and pray. Before then I couldn't survive a few lines of the Bible, but then it just became interesting to me. I could understand parts of it now. Really, the Bible is an interesting read.
That day I believed, it was like I came alive again. Often Christians use that expression and I guess it is a hard one to explain to someone who does't believe, but I really understand it now. I know not everyone believes we have a spirit, but I realized it at that point. It is like the spirit was hiding in the dark, when I believed, it came out into the light. It was as if it was dead, but it came to life. I didn't want to live like I did before anymore. Not because I was brainwashed, (26 years of hedonism doesn't dissappear in 90 minutes), but because my heart changed at that time (maybe I should say my spirit came alive at that time).

So becoming a Christian wasn't a result of some spiritual journey through various faiths (but I do have a strong awareness of most other faiths, occult, freemasonry etc); I didn't look for it, but I firmly believe God used door knocking cult groups, a catholic girl and a few other experiences to open my heart up to Him.

So let me get this straight: you felt lonely and unsatisfied from drinking too much (or depressed?). You went to church to pick up chicks (fair enough) and were pleasantly surprised at welcomed you were by the community and that was the main appeal (maybe you didn't have many close, reliable friends at the time? just guessing). You really wanted to feel 'part of something', and since everyone else believed in god, you convinced yourself that you do too...

It always seems to be the same story with all newborn Christians. They're lonely and/or depressed, have drinking/drug or social problems, so they join the Christian cult to get a newfound sense of purpose and acceptance. I mean I understand, but I don't really understand... why couldn't you just have taken up painting or something? Or joined a tennis club? Or gone travelling? I really don't mean to sound belittling (maybe too late for that...), but giving yourself over to something like that just seems like such a cop out to me, as if the blind faith, strength in numbers mentality can ever be a real substitute for dealing with the problems yourself. I guess I just have too much a sense of personal responsiblity. If I screw up in life, I deal with it myself. It's nice (and important) to have friends to help you along, but at the end of the day it's your life. Trusting in and 'giving yourself to 'god'', and obeying 'his laws' unquestioningly is like abdicating your responsibility as a person. Just my opinion.

flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

flakfizer wrote:

You think it is a difficult case because you are clearly not well-versed in Scripture. It is amazing to me that so many posters here bash Christianity without having a significant understanding of the New Testament. I'm not about to spend my time explaining the whole thing to you when one can easily read it for one's self. You will do just that if you have a genuine interest in understanding true Christianity. Of course, if your interest is just to bash it then you will spend your time combing the Internet looking for stories like the one mentioned instead.

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