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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| It is amazing to me that so many posters here bash Christianity without having a significant understanding of the New Testament. I'm not about to spend my time explaining the whole thing to you when one can easily read it for one's self. |
How should we read it, with one eye closed? |
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Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| You think it is a difficult case because you are clearly not well-versed in Scripture. It is amazing to me that so many posters here bash Christianity without having a significant understanding of the New Testament. I'm not about to spend my time explaining the whole thing to you when one can easily read it for one's self. You will do just that if you have a genuine interest in understanding true Christianity. Of course, if your interest is just to bash it then you will spend your time combing the Internet looking for stories like the one mentioned instead. |
What a load of rubbish. All you're saying is that if I've read it and don't agree with you, I must be wrong. That or your argument just doesn't make sense. There are aetheists (very smart ones) who have read and understood scripture, but that doesn't make them Christians.
You still haven't defined 'true' Christianity (because evidently you can't), and that's the bottom line. |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
I've been interested in what the Gnostic gospels have to offer, and whether they augment or castrate the bits that I've come to know and love about the Bible. |
OK, the Gnostics are extremally diverse and their writing range from very direct and beautiful to jargon-filled and esoteric.
I'd recommend taking a look at The Gospel of Thomas, very accessible and easy to read and not as heretical as most of the gnostic texts. Damn good writing. The Reality of the Rulers is a fairly interesting reinterpretation of genesis. Three Forms of First Thought is a bit jargon-filled by interesting. The Gospel of Philip is pretty good, its collection of quotes like The Gospel of Thomas but not as engaging overall. And the Letter to Flora by Ptolemy is a very direct and straight-forward bit of gnostic philsophy. There should be translations of most online or look for The Gnostic Bible, edited by Willis Barnstone and Mavin Meyer.
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| I don't blame you for being turned off by the Bible (particularly the Old Testament) and it's interesting that you would recommend it as anti-Christian propaganda. |
Well I was being partially sarcastic, but that's what it was for me. When I actually sat down and read it, it was a pretty horiffic read. The people in my church got around that by not taking the OT seriously, but then its pretty obvious from the NT that Jesus took to the OT seriously and then if you don't take the NT seriously you're left with Christian Deism, which isn't much of anything...
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| However, since you're a history buff, you'll know that translations can be misleading. |
Of course. But some of the nastier bits in the OT are pretty much impossible to take out of context or mistranslate.
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| We had a discussion here on Dave's just the other day about the Elisha story, and the word "children" is elsewhere translated as "youths", which would turn the situation around quite a bit, especially in a group of those numbers. |
Right, but even if you throw that out there's still the bits about bashing in baby's heads, obsession with donkey dicks, the list goes on and on. But its not so much the details as the whole basic attitude (and that goes for bits of the NT too, such as Paul's letters) that was just completely alien to what my church told me Christianity was all about. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote: |
| It always seems to be the same story with all newborn Christians. They're lonely and/or depressed, have drinking/drug or social problems, so they join the Christian cult to get a newfound sense of purpose and acceptance. |
Not just Christians, cult members too.
On another thread, Rteacher gave a similar account of how he came to join the Hare Krishnas.
I tried to find that message, but the thread is 200 pages long.
Do you care to repeat your story, Rteacher? |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote: |
It always seems to be the same story with all newborn Christians. They're lonely and/or depressed, have drinking/drug or social problems, so they join the Christian cult to get a newfound sense of purpose and acceptance. I mean I understand, but I don't really understand... why couldn't you just have taken up painting or something? Or joined a tennis club? Or gone travelling? I really don't mean to sound belittling (maybe too late for that...), but giving yourself over to something like that just seems like such a cop out to me, as if the blind faith, strength in numbers mentality can ever be a real substitute for dealing with the problems yourself. I guess I just have too much a sense of personal responsiblity. If I screw up in life, I deal with it myself. It's nice (and important) to have friends to help you along, but at the end of the day it's your life. Trusting in and 'giving yourself to 'god'', and obeying 'his laws' unquestioningly is like abdicating your responsibility as a person. Just my opinion. |
Not always true. I came to Christ when i had everything going for me. Lots of friends, lots of cash and lots of women. Simply put, I realized this world has nothing to offer me that can satisfy like a relationship with God.
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote: |
It always seems to be the same story with all newborn Christians. They're lonely and/or depressed, have drinking/drug or social problems, so they join the Christian cult to get a newfound sense of purpose and acceptance. I mean I understand, but I don't really understand... why couldn't you just have taken up painting or something? Or joined a tennis club? Or gone travelling? I really don't mean to sound belittling (maybe too late for that...), but giving yourself over to something like that just seems like such a cop out to me, as if the blind faith, strength in numbers mentality can ever be a real substitute for dealing with the problems yourself. I guess I just have too much a sense of personal responsiblity. If I screw up in life, I deal with it myself. It's nice (and important) to have friends to help you along, but at the end of the day it's your life. Trusting in and 'giving yourself to 'god'', and obeying 'his laws' unquestioningly is like abdicating your responsibility as a person. Just my opinion. |
Not always true. I came to Christ when i had everything going for me. Lots of friends, lots of cash and lots of women. Simply put, I realized this world has nothing to offer me that can satisfy like a relationship with God.
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and now you're a lonely old drunk with no cash 
So how did you make the leap from international playboy to Jesus-boy? |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
Not always true. I came to Christ when i had everything going for me. Lots of friends, lots of cash and lots of women. Simply put, I realized this world has nothing to offer me that can satisfy like a relationship with God.
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But, what CAUSED you to begin that relationsip? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I found Rteacher's message!
It's right here:
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Yeah, but on that particular point one of us is wrong and one of us is right. I'm 100% sure that I'm right based on the miraculous number of hippies - including myself - who completely gave up drugs, alcohol and cigarettes practically overnight just by following his instructions ...
While he was on the planet, thousands of his followers actually experienced ecstasy (without having to take the drug "ecstasy"...) Not that we didn't have the opportunity. Many times, old hippie friends (and strangers...) would hand me a joint, and I'd just throw it away without a second thought - although I formerly loved the stuff...
Everyone who ever met him was impressed by his incredible humility, compassion, and devotional energy. Even the Hells Angels who lived next door to the Krishna center in San Francisco, and Grateful Dead members - who lived across the street - were always respectful to him. They could sense (like Beatle George Harrison who offered to shave his head as a sign of devotion...) that he was an extraordinary person on a mission to save the most fallen ... |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: How Many Former Christians? |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
With all the religious talk going on around here, I've often wondered how many of us are former Christians. I was raised Baptist, married (and now divorced) a Baptist, and was a Southern Baptist missionary in China before giving it up. Tell your stories if you are a former Christian.
Peace |
Just out of curiosity, how has your family reacted to your conversion?
In my case, my mom seems kind of disappointed that she's the only Christian left, but has resigned herself to the fact and respects our beliefs. She would like us to try to hide the fact that we're no longer Christian from her Christian friends, however, as she's a little worried about potential friction.
How about you? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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This Derren Brown guy seems to be headed to become the next James Randi. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: How Many Former Christians? |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
With all the religious talk going on around here, I've often wondered how many of us are former Christians. I was raised Baptist, married (and now divorced) a Baptist, and was a Southern Baptist missionary in China before giving it up. Tell your stories if you are a former Christian.
Peace |
Just out of curiosity, how has your family reacted to your conversion?
In my case, my mom seems kind of disappointed that she's the only Christian left, but has resigned herself to the fact and respects our beliefs. She would like us to try to hide the fact that we're no longer Christian from her Christian friends, however, as she's a little worried about potential friction.
How about you? |
It was a bit difficult at first, but they've come around to respecting my decision while still clinging desparately to their own beliefs. If you've read any of my recent posts, you may also know of my experience with ET beings. This is harder for them to swallow - as it is for most people.
Peace |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| [ ... ] However, since you're a history buff, you'll know that translations can be misleading. We had a discussion here on Dave's just the other day about the Elisha story, and the word "children" is elsewhere translated as "youths", which would turn the situation around quite a bit, especially in a group of those numbers. [ ... ] |
I remember that.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=80504&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
I wanted to respond at the time, but got distracted by that thing called Life.
OK, so let's say that, rather than a bunch of mischievious children, it was instead of a punk-ass gang of 12-year old boys (12 years old was plenty back in the old days). And instead of saying, "Hey, Chromedome, take a hike!" they were, in fact, saying, "You will die, just like your mentor!"
Despite all that, that still doesn't merit being executed by wild animals. Let the punishment fit the crime! |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I love the Elisha story. The moral of the story is don't jerk around with one of God's favourite guys. |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It is amazing to me that so many posters here bash Christianity without having a significant understanding of the New Testament. |
People always bitch about things they don't understand. How many Islam-bashers bother to read the Koran? What's much more disturbing is how many people think that a book they have never bothered to read is the word of god:
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070406/LIFE/704060319/-1/NEWS06
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| "When I give my students the religious-literacy quiz that's in my book, I find Catholics who don't know the Seven Sacraments, Protestants who can't name any of the four Gospels and Jews who can't name the first book of their Bible. That doesn't make them pseudo-religious. It just makes them believers who don't really know what they are believing in," he said. |
| Quote: |
| I love the Elisha story. The moral of the story is don't jerk around with one of God's favourite guys. |
I'm also a big fan of Ezekiel 23:20
"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"
and
Psalms 137:9
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. " |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote: |
It always seems to be the same story with all newborn Christians. They're lonely and/or depressed, have drinking/drug or social problems, so they join the Christian cult to get a newfound sense of purpose and acceptance. I mean I understand, but I don't really understand... why couldn't you just have taken up painting or something? Or joined a tennis club? Or gone travelling? I really don't mean to sound belittling (maybe too late for that...), but giving yourself over to something like that just seems like such a cop out to me, as if the blind faith, strength in numbers mentality can ever be a real substitute for dealing with the problems yourself. I guess I just have too much a sense of personal responsiblity. If I screw up in life, I deal with it myself. It's nice (and important) to have friends to help you along, but at the end of the day it's your life. Trusting in and 'giving yourself to 'god'', and obeying 'his laws' unquestioningly is like abdicating your responsibility as a person. Just my opinion. |
Not always true. I came to Christ when i had everything going for me. Lots of friends, lots of cash and lots of women. Simply put, I realized this world has nothing to offer me that can satisfy like a relationship with God.
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and now you're a lonely old drunk with no cash
So how did you make the leap from international playboy to Jesus-boy? |
We were partying in New York and we were young, rich and good looking. And quite frankly I hated it. I hated how fake the people were, how empty the sex was and how dis-satisfying running after money was. One time we came out of limelights after a night of e and I just started seeing the world for what it was. (I know, I know...e does that for ya) We had a limo, were staying at the Waldorf inn, sitting on a wad of cash, surrounded by a bevy of beauties and I knew that this was as good as it was going to get....and it was miserable. It was at that time that I realized evil was the god of this world and that the only way out of this hell hole was through a savior. And incredibly enough, I not only found a savior, but an amazingly beautiful God who gave purpose to my life. |
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