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Study: Religion is Good for Kids
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject:

tomato wrote:

I used to attend skeptic meetings in Knoxville, Tennessee.
The founder of the group had a son who met a Mennonite girl, fell in love with her, married her, and joined the Mennonite community.
According to the group founder, his son was motivated by a need for group membership which he could not find outside any religious group.
It is too bad that he did not found the group a few decades earlier.

Wow. The skeptic group's founder interpreted the situation thusly, did he? LOL!

uberscheisse

Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

uberscheisse wrote:

so if we go with actual statistics, does it mean that all these well-adjusted churchgoing kids magically transform into kid-diddlers at a rate of 6+ out of 10?

Not quite. Say we have a sample group of 10 paedophiles and 100 church-goers. 6 out of the 10 paedophiles attend church, but 94 out of the 100 church-goes aren't paedophiles. It just means that there's a significant (according to this study) correlation between attending church and paedophilia within this smaller community, not within the church-attending population as a whole. Besides, 6 out of 10 in a nation where between 70% and 80% of the general US population considers themselves to be Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States) means that, statistically speaking, it's either more or as significant that paedophiles are skewed towards non-attendance than attendance. In other words, statistically speaking, and according to these studies, any given group of paedophiles tends to contain less church attenders than the general population.

yeah. i understand. i wanted to post something that was equally as problematic as saying "kids raised in a church environment are_____________" (insert whichever adjective you've been instructed to scientifically find as a trait by your think tank).

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject:

uberscheisse wrote:

Ah, I see. I guess "WHOOSH!" is in order, then! (Sorry.)

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

I was talking about the children. They shouldn't legally be allowed to brainwash kids like that. It's disgusting, unfair, and on the same level as child abuse.

Same level as child abuse? Really.

Yes really. Psychologically torturing/terrorizing children by teaching them they are going to burn in hell if they don't unquestioningly obey, causing them to have emotional breakdowns, and training them to be in a so-called 'army of god' is abuse. It's f-cking disgusting. If you have the nerve to even try to defend it, then you've got a real problem.

Quote:

Check it out, I can make baseless and hyperbolic comparisons too: attacking Christianity on Dave's ESL cafe is on the same level as murdering somebody

Yes, well that just sounds stupid. Sorry.

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

I was talking about the children. They shouldn't legally be allowed to brainwash kids like that. It's disgusting, unfair, and on the same level as child abuse.

Same level as child abuse? Really.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Yes, well that just sounds stupid. Sorry.

So does equating evangelical Christianity with child abuse. And I forgive you.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like Devil's Lake is in Ramsey County. The Ramsey County Attorney's office provides support for the Ramsey County Community Human Services Department (RCCHSD). They'd be a better place to call than Grand Forks: the relevant phone number is (651) 266-3111 - ask for the Child Protection Unit. Let us know how it goes!

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

I was talking about the children. They shouldn't legally be allowed to brainwash kids like that. It's disgusting, unfair, and on the same level as child abuse.

Same level as child abuse? Really.

The film took place in North Dakota. The social services phone number for Grand Forks, ND is (701) 787-8535 (fax (701) 772-1426). Put your money where your mouth is - if you really think the film depicts child abuse, give the Grand Forks office a call and report it. You've got all the "proof" you could ever want right there on that film! If you sincerely think that it's child abuse and you don't report it, then you've got a real problem.
EDIT: Whoops, looks like Devil's Lake is in Ramsey County. The Ramsey County Attorney's office provides support for the Ramsey County Community Human Services Department (RCCHSD). They'd be a better place to call than Grand Forks: the relevant phone number is (651) 266-3111 - ask for the Child Protection Unit. Let us know how it goes!

Just called it. Reported child abuse. They said they'd look into it. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Yes, well that just sounds stupid. Sorry.

So does equating evangelical Christianity with child abuse.

No. You are wrong.

Quote:

And I forgive you.

No you don't.

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Just called it. Reported child abuse. They said they'd look into it. Rolling Eyes

Do I detect sarcasm? Why aren't you willing to put your personal beliefs into action?

Quote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Yes, well that just sounds stupid. Sorry.

So does equating evangelical Christianity with child abuse.

No. You are wrong.

Well, let's see. If I were wrong, you think that governments around the world would have viewed the film Jesus Camp with shock and horror, and would have immediately enacted laws equating these camps with the sort of psychological terror and torture that you describe. Since there wasn't even a murmur at the governmental level, I'm pretty sure that I would be one hundred percent correct in saying that the depiction of how children are treated in the film does not coincide with the legal definition of child abuse in either the United States or North Dakota. Go ahead and call the North Dakota Attorney's office if you disagree. As I said, if you really think it's child abuse, you have an obligation to attempt to fix it. All you need to do is pick up the phone.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Quote:

And I forgive you.

No you don't.

I meant it in jest earlier, but I sincerely do forgive you. Some people have an irrational and vitriolic hatred of anything they don't understand or anything they perceive as threatening to their lives. I get it. Condemnant quod non intelligunt - they condemn because they don't understand. It's happened for thousands of years, so why should it be any different today?

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid, two years ago, there was a thread about a pair of Caucasian twin girls in the United States who were taught racism: http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=46610&highlight=Olsen+twins At racist conventions, the girls provided the entertainment by singing racist songs while accompanying themselves on the guitar. They were home schooled by their mother. In their mother's version of history, the Roman Empire fell through racial contamination. Furthermore, the American Empire is on the verge of a similar downfall. In their leisure time at home, the girls played a video game called Racial Purity. The game is played by invading Black and Spanish neighborhoods with a machine gun to see how many enemies you can mow down. How tolerant do you feel about this? As tolerant as you are asking us to feel? Last edited by tomato on Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Just called it. Reported child abuse. They said they'd look into it. Rolling Eyes

Do I detect sarcasm? Why aren't you willing to put your personal beliefs into action?

I dunno, do you?

Quote:

Yeah, cuz that's how things are done in the world... Are you really that naive?

Quote:

Since there wasn't even a murmur at the governmental level, I'm pretty sure that I would be one hundred percent correct in saying that the depiction of how children are treated in the film does not coincide with the legal definition of child abuse in either the United States or North Dakota. Go ahead and call the North Dakota Attorney's office if you disagree. As I said, if you really think it's child abuse, you have an obligation to attempt to fix it.

Well there's an awful lot of abuse going on around the world, I guess I better dust off the old superman suit and get to work. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

All you need to do is pick up the phone.

Way ahead of you skipper.

Quote:

Spare me your pretentious blandishments and the holier-than-thou attitude. I don't believe you in the first place, and your presumptuous Christian babble doesn't impress me at all. Just letting you know.

gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

In other words, statistically speaking, and according to these studies, any given group of paedophiles tends to contain less church attenders than the general population.

No, it doesn't.

Quote:

Gallup International indicates that 41%[4] of American citizens report they regularly attend religious services, compared to 15% of French citizens, 4% of UK citizens[5], and 25% of Israeli citizens.[citation needed]

However, these numbers are open to dispute. ReligiousTolerance.org states, "Church attendance data in the U.S. has been checked against actual values using two different techniques. The true figures show that only about 21% of Americans and 10% of Canadians actually go to church one or more times a week. Many Americans and Canadians tell pollsters that they have gone to church even though they have not. Whether this happens in other countries, with different cultures, is difficult to predict."[6]

In, a 2006 online Harris Poll of 2,010 U.S. adults (18 and older) found that only 26% of those surveyed attended religious services "every week or more often," 9% went "once or twice a month" 21% went "a few times a year," 3% went "once a year," 22% went "less than once a year," and 18% never attend religious services. An identical survey by Harris in 2003 found that only 26% of those surveyed attended religious services "every week or more often," 11% went "once or twice a month" 19% went "a few times a year," 4% went "once a year," 16% went "less than once a year," and 25% never attend religious services.

From the link you provided: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_united_states#Church_Attendance

But the reason why pedophiles are drawn to church is obvious: they lack self-control and they hope that the Jesus will be able to keep them from acting on their desires. Seems like it doesn't always work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Capill

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:46 am Post subject:

tomato wrote:

How tolerant do you feel about this?
As tolerant as you are asking us to feel?

That situation had nothing to do with religion. It's not comparable, in my opinion. (The girls are the band "Prussian Blue" and they're still touring the US.)

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Quote:

Yeah, cuz that's how things are done in the world... Are you really that naive?

Are you joking? US legislation is full of knee-jerk reactionary laws. The DMCA and Patriot Act ring a bell? You're hiding behind a rhetorical question when you're ignoring the obvious: if the film contained child abuse, something would have been done about it. Nothing was done about it, so therefore it wasn't child abuse according to the legal definition of the term. You might choose to believe that what you saw was child abuse according to your own definition, but that doesn't mean that you're right.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Well there's an awful lot of abuse going on around the world, I guess I better dust off the old superman suit and get to work. Rolling Eyes

Let us know how that works out for you.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Quote:

I'm not holier than you. We're all evil, sinful creatures. In God's eyes, nobody's better than anybody else, and I certainly don't consider myself better than you. I've got my own share of problems and screwups! I never claimed to be better than anybody else, and I'm not about to start now. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:52 am Post subject:

gang ah jee wrote:

No, it doesn't. From the link you provided: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_united_states#Church_Attendance

You're absolutely right. I was comparing apples (paedophiles who attend church) to oranges (percentage of US population who consider themselves Christian). I take back my statement.

gang ah jee wrote:

But the reason why pedophiles are drawn to church is obvious: they lack self-control and they hope that the Jesus will be able to keep them from acting on their desires. Seems like it doesn't always work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Capill

I looked through the link you provided but couldn't find anything to back up your claim. That paedophiles attend church in hopes of self-control might be obvious to you, but where does it say that in your link?

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:05 am Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

You do realise how asinine that sounds? "If something had been wrong, it would've been fixed ...therefore, nothing getting fixed must = nothing's wrong". Brilliant deduction...

Quote:

Nothing was done about it, so therefore it wasn't child abuse according to the legal definition of the term. You might choose to believe that what you saw was child abuse according to your own definition, but that doesn't mean that you're right.

I'm not interested in the law, nor did I really mention it (except the part where I said I'm not a lawyer). Many laws in the U.S. are (or have been) blatantly immoral, and those which aren't still don't protect everyone anyway. Nevertheless, what I saw on that movie was indeed child abuse, as I explained. Your shameless apologetics for something so obviously unethical speak volumes.

Quote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Well there's an awful lot of abuse going on around the world, I guess I better dust off the old superman suit and get to work. Rolling Eyes

Let us know how that works out for you.

Indeed.

Quote:

Oh man... why don't you just become a priest and be done with it. You don't fool me for a second.

Quote:

I'm sorry if I offended you.

Your apologies are not necessary, nor do they mean a thing to me. That's just being honest with you.

gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:13 am Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

gang ah jee wrote:

Oh, the link wasn't intended to back up the claim; rather it was just meant as an example of a devout churchgoer and Christian leader who was unable to keep himself from sexually exploiting children. From an outsider's perspective, cases where high profile religious leaders show themselves to be unable to refrain from behaviour that they publically condemn are very puzzling. There are various ways of accounting for this of course - for example, demonic possession is one explanation, systemic corruption is another. But personally, I find the thesis that certain types are drawn to religious morality because they feel that they cannot control their urges through their own internal systems of self-control and morality to be most parsimonious. Some of these people I actually feel quite sorry for - it must be a terrible burden to grow up gay, for example, but at the same time believe beyond doubt that such feelings are against God. As for others like Capill, I almost wish hell actually existed.

So just to be clear, I'm not saying that all religious people need religion to keep them in line; just that in some cases I think there is a relationship between fixation on religious morality and the kinds of things that people want to do but don't because they think God is watching them. You know, the kind of people who argue that if the Bible isn't true then there's no reason why they shouldn't touch kiddies or kill their neighbours etc.

Last edited by gang ah jee on Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:29 am Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

You do realise how asinine that sounds right? "If something had been wrong, it would've been fixed, nothing getting fixed = nothing's wrong". Brilliant deduction...

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-12-30-naked-lincolnite_x.htm

Melissa Harrington had naked pictures taken of herself in a public bar. The police arrested and ticketed her because of those pictures. Now, if the police give out tickets for something innoculous like this that was caught on film, don't you think the police would arrest "child abusers" had they been depicted on the film? It's not a difficult point to see. If there was child abuse on the video, the people would be arrested. Since nobody was arrested, there was no crime.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Quote:

I'm not interested in the law, nor did I even mention it (except the part where I said I'm not a lawyer). Many laws in the U.S. are blatantly immoral, and those which aren't still don't protect everyone anyway. Nevertheless, what I saw on that movie was indeed child abuse, as I explained.

So ignoring for a second that, by your own admission, your own definition of child abuse does not coincide with the legal definition of child abuse, according to what definition are you stating that the contents of the film Jesus Camp amount to child abuse?

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