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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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VanIslander

Joined: 18 Aug 2003 Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:33 am Post subject: clash of cultures: REAL MEN |
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men don't squat
men don't sit on the floor
men don't beat dogs
men don't hit girls
men don't give wives their paycheques
men don't hold other men's hands
men don't break their word
men are man enough to admit when they make a mistake
men are so different where I come from, at least in terms of what makes for a good man
i am VERY aware and tolerant of cultural differences usually... but when I think of Korean men as men, I sometimes slip into a form of contempt bred by my upbringing and only countered by thoughts of koreans qua koreans, as an often conquered people struggling to survive in the shift to modern forms of living |
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Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: Re: clash of cultures: REAL MEN |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
In my country:
men don't squat
men don't sit on the floor
men don't beat dogs
men don't hit girls
men don't give wives their paycheques
men don't hold other men's hands
men don't break their word
men are man enough to admit when they make a mistake
men are so different where I come from, at least in terms of what makes for a good man
i am VERY aware and tolerant of cultural differences usually... but when I think of Korean men as men, I sometimes slip into a form of contempt bred by my upbringing and only countered by thoughts of koreans qua koreans, as an often conquered people struggling to survive in the shift to modern forms of living |
All better....
It's rough to be in a place where the cultural characteristics that make you a man are not valued, accepted or acknowledged.
Same thing for the ladies...
And it's worse when the logic just doesn't seem to be there..... |
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Richard Krainium
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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You forgot men don't whine.
Whiner.  |
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VanIslander

Joined: 18 Aug 2003 Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Richard Krainium wrote: |
You forgot men don't whine.
Whiner.  |
Actually I'm not whining. Nor complaining.
Just explaining how I'm coping, not accepting, just coping, even struggling a bit with the differences. I don't expect Koreans to change to conform with the particular Western sense of masculinity I grew up with.
I lump it. Anyone who knows me knows I do that quite well.
Sympathize, shut the *beep* up, or hell even complain about my perspective if you want. |
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4 months left

Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Richard Krainium wrote: |
You forgot men don't whine.
Whiner.  |
Korean men sure as hell do, tone of voice that is. What I find funny is that Korean men say they are more macho than Japanese men. Any comments from people who lived there....Korean men vs. Japanese men. |
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VanIslander

Joined: 18 Aug 2003 Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| 4 months left wrote: |
| What I find funny is that Korean men say they are more macho than Japanese men. |
How could one think that AT ALL.
I have only been to japan six times, never lived there, but EVERYTHING I have ever seen suggests a very understandable sense of masculinity to us Western guys, there's a STOIC-like sense to them, a sense of emotional control which definitely is consistent even if different-rooted than Western senses of what it is to be a man.
I was a graduate student teaching assistant to an undergrad course on Men & Masculinity back when I was in grad school, and most of what was covered in that class, whether it be in terms of academic materials or class discussion, is alien to whatever sense of manhood is operative among Korean men.
I respect Koreans a lot, but when I think of Korean men as men, it is hard for me to appreciate them. I try... |
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whatever

Joined: 11 Jun 2006 Location: Korea: More fun than jail.
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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I completely agree with the previous post...lived in Japan for over a year and found Japanese men to be completely in control of themselves. The vast majority would be horrified if they or someone else broke into the Korean way of expressing themselves. It would be an unmasculine spectacle indicative of a lack of self-control. Never saw anything like that there and I would be shocked if I did.
I am finding that the longer I spend in Korea, the more respect and admiration I have for Japanese individuals that I interacted with in the past and just their culture in general. |
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goodgood
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 Location: seoul
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Korean men have all been in the army, drink hard, screw whores, and work HARD to support their family.
What are you, the marlboro man? This doesn't seem manly to you?
(though I do agree about the Japanese thing- those guys are cool) |
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VanIslander

Joined: 18 Aug 2003 Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| whatever wrote: |
| ...found Japanese men to be completely in control of themselves. The vast majority would be horrified if they or someone else broke into the Korean way of expressing themselves. It would be an unmasculine spectacle indicative of a lack of self-control. |
That said, i HIGHLY appreciate knowing where I stand with Koreans vs. the veneer I face with the Japanese... I respect Japanese men as men much more than Korean men as men, but much prefer Korean men as friends, so easy to see the boys in them, and to get past civilities.
I have a few very good Korean friends who are men, and respect them, even if I have to discount/overlook some of their behaviours/values out of a sense of cultural sensitivity even if not full understanding / appreciation of said differences |
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seoulsucker

Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Location: The Land of the Hesitant Cutoff
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
That said, i HIGHLY appreciate knowing where I stand with Koreans vs. the veneer I face with the Japanese. |
True dat. When I get elbowed by an old lady on the subway, I take solace in the fact that it's from the heart. No matter how polite or reserved the Japanese I've been around have been, I always seem to detect that they're doing it because they feel they have to, not because they truly want to be. |
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whatever

Joined: 11 Jun 2006 Location: Korea: More fun than jail.
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| I respect Japanese men as men much more than Korean men as men, but much prefer Korean men as friends, so easy to see the boys in them, and to get past civilities. |
Well put. It is tremendously hard to make full-fledged and lasting Japanese male friends. You can have a ton of friendly acquaintances, but they pretty much remain friends with their childhood peers and coworkers. Being friends with women is considered odd, but surprisingly my closest friends in Japan were women.
Here in Korea, I have several good Korean male friends. But, they know any whiny behavior will only result in my annoyance. They have the good sense to avoid that with me, even if it is say, on a mobile phone but in my presence. That's appreciated. Perhaps they enjoy hanging with me for similar reasons? Hmmm...I don't project drama in their personal space. |
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Corporal

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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I know what you mean! And where I come from:
women don't squat
women don't sit on the floor
women don't dye their dogs pink
women don't hit their kids
women don't take their husband's paycheques
women don't hold other women's hands
women don't break their word
women are woman enough to admit when they make a mistake
women are so different where I come from, at least in terms of what makes for a good woman
i am VERY aware and tolerant of cultural differences usually... but when I think of Korean women as women, I sometimes slip into a form of contempt bred by my upbringing and only countered by thoughts of koreans qua koreans, as an often conquered people struggling to survive in the shift to modern forms of living |
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wo buxihuan hanguoren

Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Location: Suyuskis
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Corporal wrote: |
I know what you mean! And where I come from:
women don't squat
women don't sit on the floor
women don't dye their dogs pink
women don't hit their kids
women don't take their husband's paycheques
women don't hold other women's hands
women don't break their word
women are woman enough to admit when they make a mistake
women are so different where I come from, at least in terms of what makes for a good woman
i am VERY aware and tolerant of cultural differences usually... but when I think of Korean women as women, I sometimes slip into a form of contempt bred by my upbringing and only countered by thoughts of koreans qua koreans, as an often conquered people struggling to survive in the shift to modern forms of living |
Oh, you are so correct! Not all of us have the opportunity to get knocked-up by our manly taekwondo instructors and subsequently forced into marriage! So surprise! |
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happeningthang

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: |
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I used to work on major construction sites in the Australian bush, an almost eclusively male domain.
I found the conceptions of what made a male there to be very restrictive and annoying. One of the things I enjoyed about Korea, when I first arrived was the complete disregard of a blokey, machismo.
I enjoy the improvements as I see them, although I still have my own ideas of what it takes to be a guy and don't neccessarily join in. Squatting, sitting on the floor, hand holding are nothing to be concerned about.
Wife and dog bashing isn't cool anywhere.
Breaking your word and not admitting mistakes is a case of same-same to my background. Not desirable, but frequently occuring. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Location: Seoul, South Korea
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| An interesting thing I read about Japanese culture: they consider excessive muscles to be kind of gay, and bodybuilding to be the pinnacle of gayness. |
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