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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: MULTICULTURALISM: THE NEW CHALLENGE TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS? |
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To all those on this board who celebrate multiculturalism in all its dimensions without even a hint of doubt, I ask you to read this article from The Independent (UK):
How multiculturalism is betraying women
Johann Hari
30 April 2007
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Do you believe in the rights of women, or do you believe in multiculturalism? A series of verdicts in the German courts in the past month, have shown with hot, hard logic that you can't back both. You have to choose.
The crux case centres on a woman called Nishal, a 26-year-old Moroccan immigrant to Germany with two kids and a psychotic husband. Since their wedding night, this husband beat the hell out of her. She crawled to the police covered in wounds, and they ordered the husband to stay away from her. He refused. He terrorised her with death threats.
So Nishal went to the courts to request an early divorce, hoping that once they were no longer married he would leave her alone. A judge who believed in the rights of women would find it very easy to make a judgement: you're free from this man, case dismissed.
But Judge Christa Datz-Winter followed the logic of multiculturalism instead. She said she would not grant an early divorce because - despite the police documentation of extreme violence and continued threats - there was no "unreasonable hardship" here.
Why? Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture. Goodbye, and enjoy your beatings.
This is not a freakish exception. Germany's only state-level Minister for Integration, Armin Laschet, says this is only "the last link, for the time being, in a chain of horrific rulings handed down by the German courts".
The German magazine Der Spiegel has documented a long list of these multicultural verdicts. Here are just a few:
A Lebanese-German who strangled his daughter Ibthahale and then beat her unconscious with a bludgeon because she didn't want to marry the man he had picked out for her was sentenced to mere probation. His "cultural background" was cited by the judge as a mitigating factor.
A Turkish-German who stabbed his wife Zeynep to death in Frankfurt was given the lowest possible sentence, because, the judge said, the murdered woman had violated his "male honour, derived from his Anatolian moral concepts". The bitch. A Lebanese-German who raped his wife Fatima while whipping her with a belt was sentenced to probation, with the judge citing his ... you get the idea.
Their victims are forced to ask - like Soujourner Truth, the female slave who famously challenged early women's rights activists to consider black women as their sisters - "Ain't I a woman?"
In Germany today, Muslim women have been reduced to third-class citizens stripped of core legal protections - because of the doctrine of multiculturalism, which says a society should be divided into separate cultures with different norms according to ethnic origin.
Too often this issue is mixed up with other debates and gets waved through for the sake of politeness. The right loves mashing "mass immigration and multiculturalism" into one sound-bite. Well, I think Britain should take more immigrants and refugees, not fewer - but multiculturalism is a disastrous way to greet them.
These German cases highlight the flaw at the core of multiculturalism. It assumes that immigrants have one homogenous culture which they should all follow - and it allows the most reactionary and revolting men in their midst to define what that culture is. Across Europe, many imams are offering advice to Muslim men on how to beat Muslim women. For example, in Spain, the popular Imam Mohammed Kamal Mustafa warns that you shouldn't use "whips that are too thick" because they leave scars that can be detected by the "infidels". That might be Mustafa's culture - but it isn't Nishal's. It isn't the culture of the women who scream and weep as they are beaten.
And yes, we should admit that this is disproportionately a problem among Muslim, Sikh and Hindu immigrants who arrive from countries which have not had women's rights movements. Listen to Jasvinder Sanghera, who founded the best British charity helping Asian women after her sister was beaten and beaten and then burned herself to death. She says: "It's a betrayal of these women to be PC about this. Look at the figures. Asian women in Britain are three times more likely to commit suicide than their white friends. That's because of all this."
Yet the brave campaigners who have tried to help these women - like the Labour MP Ann Cryer - have been smeared as racist. In fact, the real racists are the people who vehemently condemn misogyny and homophobia when it comes from white people but mysteriously fall silent when it comes from black and Asian men.
Indeed, in the name of this warm, welcoming multiculturalism, the German courts have explicitly compared Muslim women to the brain-damaged. The highest administrative court in North Rhine-Westphalia has agreed that Muslim parents have the "right" to forbid their daughter from going on a school trip unless she was accompanied by a male family member at all times. The judges said the girl was like "a partially mentally impaired person who, because of her disability, can only travel with a companion".
As the Iranian author Azar Nafisi puts it: "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." She is horrified by the moves in Canada to introduce shariah courts to enforce family law for Muslims.
Multiculturalists believe that they are defending immigrants. But in reality, they are betraying at least 55 per cent of them - the women and the gays. It is multiculturalists, for example, who are the biggest champions of the Government's massive expansion of "faith" schools, where children will be segregated according to parental superstition and often taught the most literalist and cruel strain of a "faith".
What will girls and gay pupils be taught there? Will they have Sura 4, verse 34 drilled into them, along with the passages from the hadith where Mohammed calls for gay people to be executed? We know Catholic schools often push the most vile aspects of their faith at children; why should Muslim schools be different?
We desperately need to empower Muslim women to reinterpret the Koran in less literalist and vicious ways, or to leave their religion all together, as they wish. But multiculturalism hobbles them before they even begin, by saying they should stick to the "authentic" culture represented by the imams.
Yes, it would be easy to keep our heads down, go with this multicultural drift, and congratulate ourselves on our tolerance of the fanatically intolerant. But I can give you a few good reasons not to. Their names are Nishal and Ibthahale and Zeynep and Fatima, and, yes, they were women. |
One has to wonder when or if the West, mired in multicultural agendas, will finally wake up to what is happening.
Recent Muslim immigrants to the West represent the first group of immigrants who have those in their midst who believe they do not need to assimilate at all to the host society and countless more among them who enable such narrow-minded adherence to the birth culture. It is clearly unprecedented in the modern history of immigration to the West. Aside from the galling attitude that they can acquire all the benefits of life in the West without any of the obligations, it is sheer folly to turn our backs on it.
Germany, where I once lived and learned the language, has in recent decades become the pinnacle of multicultural nonsense. It is now, evidently, invading the courts. How pathetic.
Let's call a spade a spade. The Muslim faith does not respect women to the extent of other religions. It encourages attitudes which feed this sort of aberrant, repulsive behavior. Islam in many countries has simply not kept pace with changes in attitudes toward women in the world as a whole. Personally, I find it alarming.
So when is too much multiculturalism too much? |
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ariellowen
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: MULTICULTURALISM: THE NEW CHALLENGE TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS? |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Recent Muslim immigrants to the West represent the first group of immigrants who have those in their midst who believe they do not need to assimilate at all to the host society and countless more among them who enable such narrow-minded adherence to the birth culture. It is clearly unprecedented in the modern history of immigration to the West. Aside from the galling attitude that they can acquire all the benefits of life in the West without any of the obligations, it is sheer folly to turn our backs on it.
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Let's call a spade a spade. The Muslim faith does not respect women to the extent of other religions. It encourages attitudes which feed this sort of aberrant, repulsive behavior. Islam in many countries has simply not kept pace with changes in attitudes toward women in the world as a whole. Personally, I find it alarming. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Why are all you thread titles in caps? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie boy wrote: |
| I ask you to read this article from The Independent (UK): |
Bloody hell.,..you're asking us to read a leftist rag like The Independent?
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But Judge Christa Datz-Winter followed the logic of multiculturalism instead. She said she would not grant an early divorce because - despite the police documentation of extreme violence and continued threats - there was no "unreasonable hardship" here.
Why? Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture. Goodbye, and enjoy your beatings. |
Reminds me of an ex co-worker (another woman) who sneered "well what did the silly bi tch expect walking around at that time of night?" on hearing a girl had been raped in the park.
More than multiculturalism, I would blame these crazy judges. This reminds me of judges in Britiain, like the one who, a few years ago, practically told an 8 year old girl she was to blame for her own rape. No multiculturalism was involved there. I also recall reading of a judge who showed leniency to a man who'd murdered his wife because, get this, she had nagged him. No multiculturalism involved there either.
These judges have discriminated against the victims, quite wrongly. The law should be the same for all. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, so typical of MCGARETTE to misconstrue and miss the issue completely. I'll post in detail later but reminds me of the scene in the movie I watched on the weekend, The Freedom Writers.
The teachers and admin of the school take the young teacher trying to help the youths to task -- they call her being against their learning, their own needs by accepting forced integration and also by making them see other things than just their own drug infested neighbourhoods. They say she isn't being "progressive" because she cares about the individuals. Same old song and dance here....
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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PS. one question.... why does the author continually harp on about "multiculturalism" without defining it or really detailing what it is..????
The issue is women's rights in any case, not Muslim intolerance. You get taught that in anthropology and you get that seconded as you travel and live around the world -- respecting the manifestations of other cultures so long as there is no pain, suffering, fear and hate.
DD |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Muslim intolerance impacts on women's right, ddufus.
Big Bird:
But where do you suppose those "crazy judges" get these notions from? That's the point here.
The PC mindset would have us accept multiculturalism unconditionally without regard for its negative ramifications. This article demonstrates the consequences of such short-sightedness.
And let's not forget the disaster of multiculturalism on this board. Ddeubel is a good case in point. Under the pretense of concern for diversity he uses the avatar of a laughing black man but those of us subjected to his inane posts almost come to associate this innocent black man with the poster who hides behind him. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
PS. one question.... why does the author continually harp on about "multiculturalism" without defining it or really detailing what it is..????
The issue is women's rights in any case, not Muslim intolerance. You get taught that in anthropology and you get that seconded as you travel and live around the world -- respecting the manifestations of other cultures so long as there is no pain, suffering, fear and hate.
DD |
The problem is that there is pain, suffering, fear and hate. And it is being excused because of the "culture" of the perpetrators. Ddummy. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Muslim intolerance impacts on women's right, ddufus.
Big Bird:
But where do you suppose those "crazy judges" get these notions from? That's the point here. |
These are the notions of an ignorant and racist judge.
| Quote: |
| The PC mindset would have us accept multiculturalism unconditionally without regard for its negative ramifications. This article demonstrates the consequences of such short-sightedness. |
I don't know exactly what the "PC mindset" is - but I suspect it is that same mindset that looks the other way at war attrocities committed in the Middle East, if those attrocities are committed by Jews. Would that be the kind of PC mindset you are railing against?
| Quote: |
| And let's not forget the disaster of multiculturalism on this board. Ddeubel is a good case in point. Under the pretense of concern for diversity he uses the avatar of a laughing black man but those of us subjected to his inane posts almost come to associate this innocent black man with the poster who hides behind him. |
As you would have us associate the innocent Jack Lord with the poster who hides behind him? |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| And let's not forget the disaster of multiculturalism on this board. Ddeubel is a good case in point. Under the pretense of concern for diversity he uses the avatar of a laughing black man but those of us subjected to his inane posts almost come to associate this innocent black man with the poster who hides behind him. |
As you would have us associate the innocent Jack Lord with the poster who hides behind him? |
Right. Wasn't Jack Lord a liberal?
Steve, I'd say I probably agree with you here, but I'd also like to know how you'd define 'multiculturalism'. I've always thought of it as something quite benign, but others take it to mean complete cultural and moral relativism. Some clarity in definitions might help discussion along. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: MULTICULTURALISM: THE NEW CHALLENGE TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS? |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
To all those on this board who celebrate multiculturalism in all its dimensions without even a hint of doubt, I ask you to read this article from The Independent (UK):
How multiculturalism is betraying women
Johann Hari
30 April 2007
| Quote: |
These German cases highlight the flaw at the core of multiculturalism. It assumes that immigrants have one homogenous culture which they should all follow - and it allows the most reactionary and revolting men in their midst to define what that culture is. |
One has to wonder when or if the West, mired in multicultural agendas, will finally wake up to what is happening...
Let's call a spade a spade. The Muslim faith does not respect women to the extent of other religions. It encourages attitudes which feed this sort of aberrant, repulsive behavior. Islam in many countries has simply not kept pace with changes in attitudes toward women in the world as a whole. Personally, I find it alarming.
So when is too much multiculturalism too much? |
To answer your question the examples given in this article, and the fact that German judges are using this in their judgements then the German conception of multiculturalsim has gone too far. I wonder if the judges' actions are backed up by law, or if they are individual cases of personal assessment by the judges. If the latter then as Big Bird suggests, they do smell an awful lot like the abhorrent rape case decisions where the women was at fault for "wearing a provacative dress", or "being alone in the wrong place".
It's interesting though to see that the author of the article can make the distinction that there are a lot of diverse opinions in the muslim world and religion, and that we, in the west shouldn't allow the dominant definition to be provided by the "most reactionary and revolting men". It's the only positive to be found in the article, that hopefully will prompt more support for moderates being pushed as the legitimate face of Islam.
Like the Islamic world, the concepts of multiculturalism are diverse and the German example is just one variant, which, unfortunately, is now hurting those they sought to help, like any -ism taken to an extreme. The Australian strain of multiculturalism certainly doesn't make any allowances for cultural background in the courts and rightfully so.
I'd suggest that the German execution of multiculturalism is severly flawed by allowing such ideas to corrupt the rule of law. This doesn't mean that multiculturalism is at fault throughout the western world however. There are differing ideas of what multiculturalism is and DD is right to point out that the writer didn't bother to define the term.
I'm all for multiculturalism, it has changed Australia for the better in my experience, but I also support the rule of law being equally applied. Multiculturalism can inform the judiciary, but shouldn't exempt people from it. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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google "women islam"
Read what Islam scholars have to say about women in Islam.
I would CERTAINLY not call
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Why? Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture. Goodbye, and enjoy your beatings. |
an intelligent judgement.
To question the intent of the judge seems like a fairly preliminary action before reporting this news.
You don't, after all, hear about female judges saying to jewish woman who's husbands banish them to the menstruation shed in the dead of winter, "Listen you dirty f**k. You don't deserve to be in the presence of men. You are UNCLEAN, don't you get it? You THINK that it is merely your body's way of shedding unused endometrium because no fertized egg implanted itself but the fact is that you're DISTGUSTING!!!!
That is your backwards religion for you. Good luck with the frostbite".
I didn't even bother reading the rest of the article, though I'm sure it MAY be interesting.
So what are to believe? That JUDGES are not the BEST people to go to in order to understand religious doctrines?
I am not about to say that women are equal in Islam but that judge obviously has NO business discussing the merits of the religion.
Sounds like she's an ignorant idiot with a chip on her shoulder. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:49 am Post subject: |
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ps...
From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam#Divorce
And here is where it talks about beatings:
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| In case of rebellious behaviour, the husband is asked to urge his wife to mend her ways, then to refuse to share their beds, and as the last resort, husbands are allowed to admonish their wives by beating[76] (which is normally described as mild and which doesn't leave a mark). |
...doesn't leave a mark.
hm.
Seems already that that particular husband wasn't really being a good muslim was he? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Big Bird chirped:
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| These are the notions of an ignorant and racist judge. |
Is that giant beak of yours getting in the way of reading carefully? It was precisely this judge's concern for Islamic tradition that led her to make such a senseless ruling. How is that being racist, unless it's against her own German heritage (which I doubt is what you meant)?
The atrocities committed by Jews? So you're saying that the Israeli government has a policy of deliberate mass killing? Let me set you straight: it is Hizbollah and Hamas, among others, who deliberately plan to kill and maim Jews. Mossad and the Jewish defense forces to engage in targeted killings of known terrorists and militant leaders and sometimes, unfortunately, innocent bystanders are killed in the process. But would you expect them to do nothing? Or launch a full-scale invasion each time a terrorist or militant leader is spotted? The Arab extremists leave Israeli policy-making between a rock and a hard place, dearie.
gang ah jee:
Jack Lord was far from being a liberal. By the standards of his time, he was a political moderate, which would make him right of center in today's skewed ideological spectrum. The cop he played was level-headed and hard-nosed, giving no quarter to thugs and punks, but had a soft spot for kids and the old. Lord was a philanthropist in local Hawaiian society too and helped to finance drama programs for youth and starting actors there.  He was a straight-shooter and the character he played didn't mince words either. He married and stay married to the same woman unlike most Hollywood types and he never made excuses for himself. After producer Lenny Freeman died suddenly before the 6th season, Lord took over his duties while remaining the star of the longest running cop show in television history. Now don't you wish you hadn't mentioned his name? 
As for multiculturalism, the definition depends on the context in which it is employed. Often it is made interchangeable with "diversity," a liberal code word for "tolerance of anything leftist but not rightist." Germans, in a concerted effort to make amends for the Holocaust, carried out an educational policy of atonement which has led to hand wringing that would make even a liberal annoyed. Unlike the Japanese, they have taken on their moral burden wholly and nobly but it has led in recent years (partly in an effort to assist Turkish guest workers in assimilating) to a brand of cultural relativism that at times almost negates German culture itself and has led, tragically, to a resurgence in neo-Nazism in recent years, a backlash to this sort of cultural self-denigration. |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Interesting article.
Culture is being applied as an excuse for offenses that are punishable under the law.
It would be like saying to a native American woman who was beaten by her husband... "Well....since he witnessed this happening to his mother, the court must believe that he feels this is the correct course of action based on his beliefs. Ok....bye bye."
It doesn't matter what the culture or background of a person is....it doesn't absolve them of doing something wrong under the law. At least that is how the law should be executed. But this is not always the case, which is why there are problems not in terms of culture being introduced as a compelling reason to drop a case or lower the penalty but also in terms of gender, race, religion and sexual orientation.
Also, I think this article focuses on Germany's multicultural movement which is pretty messed up. Another article I read states that
| Quote: |
Fidan, who wants to take her husband to court for beating and raping her, has to wait another year before she can act without risk of deportation.
In Germany, immigrant women have to be married for two years before they can divorce and stay in the country independently.
A ruling in Frankfurt last month highlighted the conflicting attitudes which enable honor crimes to continue, say Muslim women. A judge refused a quick divorce to a battered wife of Moroccan descent saying it was not unusual for a man with a Moroccan background to physically punish his wife. |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070427/lf_nm/muslimwomen_europe_honour_dc_2
So basically, there are women who are trapped in bad marriages for at least 2 years before they can legally ask for a divorce without the fear of being deported back to their home countries.
Funny....if the judges want to toss around culture so much, they should know that these women will most likely not be welcomed back to their families if they actually decide to divorce before the 2 years time period are sent back. |
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