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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
The Administration and indeed some of its predecessors simply decided that they do not consider your views -- as but one self-righteous, hostile-to-America, "citizen-of-the-world" who addresses "America" as you do, above -- one way or another.
So feel free to continue venting here on Dave's ESL Cafe. America does not listen. |
Well duh. But our governments listen and then balance the vote getting nature of playing the anti-American card when dealing with your nation. "Should Canada sell gas to America or China? If I play to anti-Americanism, will it get me votes?"
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| Well, not really. You consider us "fascist" as opposed to "Fascist." You also said "learn to take better care of your poor" a while back, too. |
I'm not saying that is true. Personally I think the statement is over blown. I've also previously noted the observation one of your countrymen made a long time ago about how Europeans were always warning America was about to fall into the grips of fascism when in fact the nations of Europe were themselves falling into the grips of fascism (clearly the quote comes from the '60s or '70s). I'm just commenting your line of reasoning is fallacious.
| Quote: |
| Noted. I am an American and I have heard you. But at the end of the day...so what? That is reality. |
Like I say, don't matter. It is not for your consumption. You assume a lot. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mindmetoo wrote: |
| But our governments listen... |
The Harper govt listens and responds to you. Interesting, Mindmetoo.
Glad to hear, in any case, that you do not accept the allegation that America is a fascist state -- or least that such a statement appears "overblown," or hyperbolic to you.
This strange thread has produced some rather interesting exchanges: extremely defensive posters flocking to deflect any criticism of the article -- indeed, to the point where several posters are in frank denial about the article's message and meaning.
We even see one poster flatly asserting "the idea of a coup was never mentioned."
| Happeningthang wrote: |
| Perhaps you should read the whole article. The idea of a coup was never mentioned. |
| Quote: |
[After mentioning "Pinochet" in her introduction,] Last autumn, there was a military coup in Thailand. The leaders of the coup took a number of steps, rather systematically, as if they had a shopping list. In a sense, they did. Within a matter of days, democracy had been closed down: the coup leaders declared martial law, sent armed soldiers into residential areas, took over radio and TV stations, issued restrictions on the press, tightened some limits on travel, and took certain activists into custody.
They were not figuring these things out as they went along. If you look at history, you can see that there is essentially a blueprint for turning an open society into a dictatorship. That blueprint has been used again and again in more and less bloody, more and less terrifying ways. But it is always effective. It is very difficult and arduous to create and sustain a democracy - but history shows that closing one down is much simpler. You simply have to be willing to take the 10 steps.
As difficult as this is to contemplate, it is clear, if you are willing to look, that each of these 10 steps has already been initiated today in the United States by the Bush administration. |
Then we see several pages where one or more posters do all they can to minimize and conceal the author's purpose in speaking of fascism -- what is it...? -- a dozen times or so at least...
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| Fascist America, in 10 easy steps...George Bush and his administration seem to be taking them all...beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable - as the author and political journalist Joe Conason, has put it, that it can happen here. And that we are further along than we realise...the danger of American authoritarianism. I am arguing that we need also to look at the lessons of European and other kinds of fascism to understand the potential seriousness of the events we see unfolding in the US... |
She even compares 9/11 to the Reichstag Fire before listing why she believes the American govt is taking the nation down the same path as Hitler did Germany and indeed as the Thai military did Thailand recently.
Her tone is outright alarmist and indeed hysterical...
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| ...fascist shifts or anti-democracy crackdowns...standard practice for closing down an open society or crushing a pro-democracy uprising..."First they came for the Jews..." military tribunals...a fascist shift...Mussolini and Stalin...Develop a thug caste...When leaders who seek what I call a "fascist shift" want to close down an open society, they send paramilitary groups of scary young men out to terrorise citizens. The Blackshirts...the Brownshirts... |
And it goes on.
Then, after sufficiently demonizing the American govt enough, by comparing it to Hitler and the other thugs in ten sections, she closes by reserving a heroic place for herself and her leftist allies...
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| ...only a handful of patriots are trying to hold back the tide of tyranny for the rest of us...the "end of America" could come...tyranny...take up the banner the founders asked us to carry. |
Mindmetoo, please call me come January 2009. I would like to know whether the W. Bush Administration has established a fascist tyranny, ended America, closed the Senate and the Supreme Court, and seized power indefinitely via a Hitler-style, Pinochet-style, or Thai-style military coup -- which is the article's allegation, by the way...
Last edited by Gopher on Tue May 01, 2007 12:06 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| We even see one poster flattly asserting "the idea of a coup was never mentioned." |
Uh-oh, Gopher is up to his selective quoting tricks again! Let's put happeningthang's quote in context:
| lastat06513 wrote: |
The only thing I can say is; a coup can NEVER happen in the US for two reasons;
1. The first amendment
and terrifying enough....
2. The second amendment |
| Happeningthang wrote: |
| Perhaps you should read the whole article. The idea of a coup was never mentioned. |
It's certainly true that a coup was mentioned in the article; happeningthang was, however, responding to lastat06513's mistaken understanding that the article was predicting a coup in the US.
So Gopher, does Wolf claim that America is currently a fascist country? Or does she claim that America will become a fascist country before 2009? Hmm? You don't seem to be too clear on it. I think you're still confused. Just like you're still confused about who actually thinks America is a fascist country. (hint - nobody here)
And are you still trying to pretend to yourself that the American Freedom Agenda is a liberal organisation?
In any case you have offered a different perspective to this discussion. I acknowledge that what you have said is true for you. (Is that right? I wouldn't want to upset you again) |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Interesting, Mindmetoo.
Glad to hear you do not accept the allegation that America is a fascist state -- or least that such a statement appears "overblown," or hyperbolic to you.
This strange thread has produced some rather interesting exchanges: extremely defensive posters flocking to deflect any criticism of the article -- indeed, to the point where several posters are in frank denial about the article's message and meaning.
We even see one poster flattly asserting "the idea of a coup was never mentioned."
| Happeningthang wrote: |
| Perhaps you should read the whole article. The idea of a coup was never mentioned. |
| Quote: |
[After mentioning "Pinochet" in her introduction,] Last autumn, there was a military coup in Thailand. The leaders of the coup took a number of steps, rather systematically, as if they had a shopping list. In a sense, they did. Within a matter of days, democracy had been closed down: the coup leaders declared martial law, sent armed soldiers into residential areas, took over radio and TV stations, issued restrictions on the press, tightened some limits on travel, and took certain activists into custody.
They were not figuring these things out as they went along. If you look at history, you can see that there is essentially a blueprint for turning an open society into a dictatorship. That blueprint has been used again and again in more and less bloody, more and less terrifying ways. But it is always effective. It is very difficult and arduous to create and sustain a democracy - but history shows that closing one down is much simpler. You simply have to be willing to take the 10 steps.
As difficult as this is to contemplate, it is clear, if you are willing to look, that each of these 10 steps has already been initiated today in the United States by the Bush administration. |
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You're better than this Gopher.
If you cared to look at the post I was responding to it should be clear to you, I was talking about the suggestion of a similar coup occuring in the US.
Yes, Wolf mentions coups as examples of tyrannical behaviour by states, but only to draw parallels with some actions of the Bush adminstration, not to suggest that a military coup was imminent. It's not a matter of deflecting criticism of the article, it's a matter of correctly understanding what was said in it.
For one who expresses concern with deflecting criticism you seem to be actively engaged in it. Your foray into the semantics of the term 'facism' being used as a lazy catchphrase, something that wasn't evident in the article, rather that was your assessment of the term, an approach you seem to have abandoned for an attack on posters understanding of the "meaning and message".
Now you're going on the offensive and misrepresenting posters (me at least, I won't speak for others) and suggesting "we don't get it"? Pretty condescending by the way, I at least give you the credit of being able to understand the propositions of the article.
That, and your apparent refusal to be engaged in the content of the article, because, you have "no intention of letting her off the hook for her dramatics and propagandistic appeal to her Guardian-derived, build-in Hallelujah-choir".
What, a response to the content of the article is beneath you because the word 'facist' was used. It offends you that much? I would have thought that it would have spurred you into a legitimate rebuttal of the points, not a undeserved focus of a single word in the title. You also seem to focus on the derivation of the article as coming from the Guardian, but it should be recognised that the original author, Naomi Wolf, is an American commentator.
So, in interest in leaving the muddying of the waters behind us, could you respond to some simple questions?
Do you see any relation to the US administrations' actions listed in the article, and facist governments or like minded military governments?
If you are concerned about the comprehension of the article's "message and meaning" I would have thought you'd be eager to try and 'correct' the misunderstandings as you see them. |
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sojourner1
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Location: Where meggi swim and 2 wheeled tractors go sput put chug alugg pug pug
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
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fascist state geared for business executives to get richer. Thats America and thats Korea too. Ever notice how radio and TV refer to all people as office workers and how it all centers around assuming everyone is achieving substantial financial performance. Everything tends to evolve around those who have money, an office, and a big fancy home. It's just not fair if you're not born into a nice chunk of change. Nepotism rules the job markets that offer a priveledge lifestyle of actually having adequate means to raise kids and own a nice home, all while building wealth (or already having it).
Now Korea is fascist too in that netpotism rules for executive and high paying positions such as in the large companies being family owed were thier kids (princes and princesses) become the next officers. The 2 countries just do it in thier own ways. I feel all developed nations are fascist states. Yep. Englands the same, so is Canada, Australia and the rest.
In case you have not read about fascism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
I feel the wiki is incorrect on saying fascism is defunct in the Western world for it is alive. Again, as nationalism is a part of fascism, the wiki tries to protect wealthy US interests as it is governed by wealthy US interests who largely, control the US government. |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: |
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I don't see a problem with criticizing the actions and policies of a nuclear-armed nation, a nation that freely uses force, and is the appointed (partially self, partially by acclaim) leader of the free world. Feel free, America, to step down from that role if you're not prepared to have every move and policy examined by the citizens of the world.
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What "examination"? This is just plain old America-bashing. You'll hate the next President, too.  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| wylies99 wrote: |
| Quote: |
I don't see a problem with criticizing the actions and policies of a nuclear-armed nation, a nation that freely uses force, and is the appointed (partially self, partially by acclaim) leader of the free world. Feel free, America, to step down from that role if you're not prepared to have every move and policy examined by the citizens of the world.
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What "examination"? This is just plain old America-bashing. You'll hate the next President, too. |
I liked Clinton. Who knows what I will think of the next president. I'm sorry, if you're in the #1 slot, you're always subject to debate and criticism. Does it really make you weep and cry? I thought Americans were rugged individualists? You're kinda thin skinned like a Korean.
You can use a loaded term like "bashing", but I think a bashing charge is better laid if the person issues negative opinions without making any attempt to back up the criticism with facts and logic. |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| What "facts and logic" are being used in this thread to discredit the Bush administration? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Well worth listening to 
http://www.archive.org/details/jfks19610427
John F. Kennedy Speech, April 27, 1961
"The President and the Press"
American Newspaper Publishers Association.
Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, New York, NY |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Happeningthang: the author associates the W. Bush Administration with Nazi Germany, Pinochet, and the Thai junta that recently seized power. That is the point of bringing up the Thai coup -- something that W. Bush apparently wants to emulate, this author alleges -- and then following it with a long discussion of how it and the other analogies she draws all unfolded according to the same playbook.
So, yes. She indeed predicts a fascist coup will not only occur, but is well underway in America.
This is the far-left's chronic fallback position, Happeningthang: Nazis and fascism.
In any case...
| happeningthang wrote: |
| your apparent refusal to be engaged in the content of the article, because, you have "no intention of letting her off the hook for her dramatics and propagandistic appeal to her Guardian-derived, build-in Hallelujah-choir..." |
Let us start, then, with her first analogy and assertion: 9/11 and the W. Bush Administration's response to it come from the same playbook -- she calls it "an old trick" -- as the Reichstag Fire and Hitler's response to it.
Patriot Act = Enabling Act, in other words (and W. Bush = Hitler; so-called Neocons = Nazis, of course).
The Nazis apparently (and I do not believe the evidence is entirely conclusive, but very likely this is true, however) burned the Reichstag, held a show trial, and then blamed international Communist conspiracies for it.
The Nazis cynically used this to propose and pass an Enabling Act that (a) declared a permanent state of emergency and suspended all civil liberties in Germany; (b) usurped the powers of the presidency and allowed Hitler to rule by decree indefinitely; (c) effectively shut down the Reichstag -- and it never recovered; (d) and ended once-and-for-all the Weimar Constitution.
This has direct bearing on American affairs today, Happeningthang? This sheds insight into the W. Bush Administration?
Do you truly believe that these events have transpired or are transpiring in America today, Happeningthang? That there is any validity at all to this outrageously-hyperbolic analogy? That this is, as you said on page one, one of the author's "valid points?"
Did the neocons perpetrate 9/11 to get their enabling act, Happeningthang?
Did W. Bush delcare a permanent state of emergency and susped the Bill of Rights?
Has W. Bush seized the presidency indefinitely and begun ruling by decree? Do you have evidence, any evidence at all, that, like Hitler, he has seized the govt and will never permit elections to occur again?
Has W. Bush dismissed or dissolved the Senate, moreover? Do you have any evidence that he intends anything like this?
Do you allege that the United States Constitution is no longer in force, or in immediate danger of being scrapped or, as the author alleges, "being systematically dismantled" as we speak?
Really? The W. Bush Administration is systematically dismantling the United States Constitution, piece by piece, just as the Nazis did after the Reichstag fire? W. Bush, the Thai junta, Pinochet, and Hitler: all following the same agenda for the same motives and based on the same playbook and "old tricks?" Do you truly stand by this allegation, Happeningthang?
How does this analogy account for the November elections? for the current military-funding confrontation in the Senate? indeed, for extreme antiBush opposition since day one up to and including Reid and Pelosi today? How does this account for -- and I am only 99.999% certain, Happeningthang -- W. Bush's likely retirement from the Oval Office after January 2009?
Do you understand, moreover, that were this analogy apt, the Gestapo or the DINA or apparently in your worldview, the FBI, who are all the same, would be coming for us -- not to mention the author of this ridiculously-overstated article -- for having this discussion? This web-site and many others like it would have been shut down by now.
And why have they not moved against people like Chomsky, Happeningthang? Where are the fleeing intellectuals like Einstein who flee such evil regimes? Where are the Jewish ghettos? Where are the concentration camps bent on industrial murder? Where are the refugees?
Why can you and people like this author not discuss your issues with the W. Bush Administration and the Patriot Act without citing Hitler and the Nazis? Are you that unimaginative? Is your descriptive vocabulary that bankrupt and empty?
Last edited by Gopher on Tue May 01, 2007 12:40 pm; edited 12 times in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| And why have they not moved against people like Chomsky, Happeningthang? |
As long as he dances to the elite's tune Chomsky has nothing to worry about. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Happeningthang: the author associates the W. Bush Administration with Nazi Germany, Pinochet, and the Thai junta that recently seized power. |
Associates? Lies, boy, lies... I believe the term you are looking for is ANALogy.
| Quote: |
| something that W. Bush apparently wants to emulate |
Lies, boy, lies. You say it is cause and effect: those happened, the Cadre follow. Wrong. Again, it's ANALogy, not cause and effect.
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| this author alleges -- and then following it with a long discussion of how it and the other analogies she draws all unfolded according to the same playbook. |
Incorrect analogy, boy. unfolded from a similar goal might be a legitimate characterization...
Unless, of course, we wish to mislead... and fearmonger...
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| So, yes. She indeed predicts a fascist coup will not only occur, but is well underway in America. |
That she does, but your logic is flawed, boy. You're sayign something along the lines of, "The rock fell from the sky" vs. "The rock fell from the sky because God made it do so."
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| This is the far-left's chronic fallback position, Happeningthang: Nazis and fascism. |
Oh! Is THAT what it is? Citations? I mean you are saying ALL "leftists" ALWAYS fall back to fascism. One would think yu'd have back-up for that, no?
Personally, I don't recall this being the case until... gosh... the current administration started acting like... well... fascists. But even then, few if any have referenced Hitler. I see people stating that the military-industrial complex has massive amounts of influence/control in a more and more totalitarian administration... and thus, F/fascsim is in process.
It is a far cry from your statement of equivalence.
| Quote: |
Let us start, then, with her first analogy and assertion: 9/11 and the W. Bush Administration's response to it come from the same playbook -- she calls it "an old trick" -- as the Reichstag Fire and Hitler's response to it.
Patriot Act = Enabling Act, in other words (and W. Bush = Hitler; so-called Neocons = Nazis, of course)... The Nazis cynically used this to propose and pass an Enabling Act that (a) declared a permanent state of emergency and suspended all civil liberties in Germany; (b) usurped the powers of the presidency and allowed Hitler to rule by decree indefinitely; (c) effectively shut down the Reichstag -- and it never recovered; (d) and ended once-and-for-all the Weimar Constitution. |
Yes, and? So, you are saying similar events have not happened in the US during this administration? Can you prove 9/11 wasn't done by/aided by/abetted by/negligently handled by this administration?
Civil liberties have been suspended. The legislature has been emasculated (until recently.) It's recovery is still in process. And the Constitution has been usurped.
Are all of these faits accompli (sp?)? No. Does she say they are? No. She says it is happening. Please note the use of the continuous.
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| This has direct bearing on American affairs today, Happeningthang? This sheds insight into the W. Bush Administration? |
This is just stupid. Again, analogy does not equal cause and effect.
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| Do you truly believe that these events have transpired or are transpiring in America today? |
Ummm... belief has to do with the unobservable. Do I believe they have happened or are happening? Duh!
Wiretaps, extraordinary renditions, suspension of habeus corpus, vote fraud, signing statements, militarized use of the National Guard on US soil, etc., etc.
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| That there is any validity at all to this outrageously-hyperbolic analogy? |
Is there any validity to claiming the suspension of habeus corpus via the MCA, the usurpation of the powers of the Congress, lying to Congress, waging offensive war (illegal and immoral war), and refusing to follow the will of the people do **not** in any way at least indicate a possible trend toward fascism? That's a truly bizarre assertion, boy.
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| Did the neocons perpetrate 9/11 to get their enabling act? |
87% of Americans believe they did, to one extent or another. How's it feel to be the odd egg?
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| Did W. Bush delcare a permanent state of emergency and susped the Bill of Rights? |
Yes. He stated we are in a decades long war. De facto declaration. Yes, habeus corpus is suspended, and by extension other rights as well. Watch Olbermann again, boy.
Your own hyperbole and bullshit are at all-time highs here. She never said these things are accomplished. She said they were happening and **would** be accomplished if Americans did not take action to prevent them.
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| Has W. Bush seized the presidency indefinitely and begun ruling by decree? |
Yes. De facto suspension of Congress via signing statements and acquisition of the presidency via vote fraud.
Your own hyperbole and bullshit are at all-time highs here. She never said these things are accomplished. She said they were happening and **would** be accomplished if Americans did not take action to prevent them.
| Quote: |
| Do you have evidence, any evidence at all, that, like Hitler, he has seized the govt and will never permit elections to occur again? |
See above.
Your own hyperbole and bullshit are at all-time highs here. She never said these things are accomplished. She said they were happening and **would** be accomplished if Americans did not take action to prevent them.
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| Has W. Bush dismissed or dissolved the Senate, moreover? Do you have any evidence that he intends anything like this? |
See above. De facto.
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| Do you allege that the United States Constitution is no longer in force, or in immediate danger of being scrapped or, as the author alleges, "being systematically dismantled" as we speak? |
Unequivocally. Do you claim otherwise?
| Quote: |
| Really? The W. Bush Administration is systematically dismantling the United States Constitution, piece by piece, just as the Nazis did after the Reichstag fire? W. Bush, the Thai junta, Pinochet, and Hitler: all following the same agenda for the same motives and based on the same playbook and "old tricks?" Do you truly stand by this allegation, Happeningthang? |
Do you stand by this misrepresentation of the article?
| Quote: |
| How does this analogy account for the November elections?for the current military-funding confrontation in the Senate? indeed, for extreme antiBush opposition since day one up to and including Reid and Pelosi today? |
Where is the conflict between the article and current events?
She never said these things are accomplished. She said they were happening and **would** be accomplished if Americans did not take action to prevent them. But Americans are. Not enough, but it's a start.
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| How does this account for -- and I am only 99.999% certain, Happeningthang -- W. Bush's likely retirement from the Oval Office after January 2009? |
Did she say Bush would remain president? Are you saying she claimed Bush would be a lifetime president as opposed to on party controlling the presidency?
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| Do you understand, moreover, that were this analogy apt, the Gestapo or the DINA or apparently in your worldview, the FBI, who are all the same, would be coming for us |
In fact, they are coming after "us." Or do you not read the papers? Have you not herd of the wire taps? Have you not heard of the FBI's misuse of the letters?
| Quote: |
| -- not to mention the author of this ridiculously-overstated article -- for having this discussion? This web-site and many others like it would have been shut down by now. |
If one accepted your assertion that the author stated these things are all accomplished as opposed to events being attempted and in process...
The lying thing... I swear it's genetic with you neo-con/Bush apologists.
| Quote: |
| Why can you and people like this author not discuss your issues with the W. Bush Administration and the Patriot Act without citing Hitler and the Nazis? Are you that unimaginative? Is your descriptive vocabulary that bankrupt and empty? |
Nice straw. Even better hyperbole.
So, your assertion is that he/she ALWAYS invokes the Nazis and Hitler when discussing Bush? You sure you want to hold to that statement?
friggidiot. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Let us start, then, with her first analogy and assertion: 9/11 and the W. Bush Administration's response to it come from the same playbook -- she calls it "an old trick" -- as the Reichstag Fire and Hitler's response to it.
Patriot Act = Enabling Act, in other words (and W. Bush = Hitler; so-called Neocons = Nazis, of course).
The Nazis apparently (and I do not believe the evidence is entirely conclusive, but very likely this is true, however) burned the Reichstag, held a show trial, and then blamed international Communist conspiracies for it.
The Nazis cynically used this to propose and pass an Enabling Act that (a) declared a permanent state of emergency and suspended all civil liberties in Germany; (b) usurped the powers of the presidency and allowed Hitler to rule by decree indefinitely; (c) effectively shut down the Reichstag -- and it never recovered; (d) and ended once-and-for-all the Weimar Constitution.
This has direct bearing on American affairs today, Happeningthang? This sheds insight into the W. Bush Administration?
Do you truly believe that these events have transpired or are transpiring in America today, Happeningthang? That there is any validity at all to this outrageously-hyperbolic analogy? That this is, as you said on page one, one of the author's "valid points?"
Did the neocons perpetrate 9/11 to get their enabling act, Happeningthang?
Did W. Bush delcare a permanent state of emergency and susped the Bill of Rights?
Has W. Bush seized the presidency indefinitely and begun ruling by decree? Do you have evidence, any evidence at all, that, like Hitler, he has seized the govt and will never permit elections to occur again?
Has W. Bush dismissed or dissolved the Senate, moreover? Do you have any evidence that he intends anything like this?
Do you allege that the United States Constitution is no longer in force, or in immediate danger of being scrapped or, as the author alleges, "being systematically dismantled" as we speak?
Really? The W. Bush Administration is systematically dismantling the United States Constitution, piece by piece, just as the Nazis did after the Reichstag fire? W. Bush, the Thai junta, Pinochet, and Hitler: all following the same agenda for the same motives and based on the same playbook and "old tricks?" Do you truly stand by this allegation, Happeningthang? |
Gopher, this is a crude strawman. Your Posts-Not-Based-Around-Logical-Fallacies counter has been reset to zero. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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First, on the allegation that I misrepresented the article: I imagine the only thing to do is to reprint the thing in its entirety and not reduce it to summary.
Here is what I refer to, above, Happeningthang:
| Naomi Wolf wrote: |
Fascist America, in 10 easy steps
From Hitler to Pinochet and beyond, history shows there are certain steps that any would-be dictator must take to destroy constitutional freedoms. And, argues Naomi Wolf, George Bush and his administration seem to be taking them all...
Last autumn, there was a military coup in Thailand. The leaders of the coup took a number of steps, rather systematically, as if they had a shopping list. In a sense, they did...
They were not figuring these things out as they went along. If you look at history, you can see that there is essentially a blueprint for turning an open society into a dictatorship. That blueprint has been used again and again in more and less bloody, more and less terrifying ways. But it is always effective. It is very difficult and arduous to create and sustain a democracy - but history shows that closing one down is much simpler. You simply have to be willing to take the 10 steps.
As difficult as this is to contemplate, it is clear, if you are willing to look, that each of these 10 steps has already been initiated today in the United States by the Bush administration...
It is my argument that, beneath our very noses, George Bush and his administration are using time-tested tactics to close down an open society. It is time for us to be willing to think the unthinkable - as the author and political journalist Joe Conason, has put it, that it can happen here. And that we are further along than we realise.
Conason eloquently warned of the danger of American authoritarianism. I am arguing that we need also to look at the lessons of European and other kinds of fascism to understand the potential seriousness of the events we see unfolding in the US.
1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
After we were hit on September 11 2001, we were in a state of national shock. Less than six weeks later, on October 26 2001, the USA Patriot Act was passed by a Congress that had little chance to debate it; many said that they scarcely had time to read it...
Creating a terrifying threat - hydra-like, secretive, evil - is an old trick. It can, like Hitler's invocation of a communist threat to the nation's security, be based on actual events (one Wisconsin academic has faced calls for his dismissal because he noted, among other things, that the alleged communist arson, the Reichstag fire of February 1933, was swiftly followed in Nazi Germany by passage of the Enabling Act, which replaced constitutional law with an open-ended state of emergency). Or the terrifying threat can be based, like the National Socialist evocation of the "global conspiracy of world Jewry", on myth... |
And this is what my post, above, responds to, Happeningthang.
Second, this post...
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| She never said these things are accomplished. She said they were happening and **would** be accomplished if Americans did not take action to prevent them... |
I know this kind of inflammatory, allegation-driven article is precisely the kind of article that appeals to you. And all the others are here as well -- even Igotthisguitar. But I can hardly read your post, dude, above your screaming -- and your talk of rocks falling from the sky because they fell as opposed to because God dropped them, I must confess, I cannot follow at all what you mean to say by this.
In any case, please be specific here. She referenced Madison's revolutionary rhetoric and calls to action. She urged Americans "to stand our ground and fight for our nation, and take up the banner the founders asked us to carry." Here, you reference "taking action to prevent them." You indeed said it over and over again.
What exactly would you have people do if you could? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| wylies99 wrote: |
| What "facts and logic" are being used in this thread to discredit the Bush administration? |
I'm speaking of the original article. Aren't you? You're not being very specific. |
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