Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - Christian beats a man to death for not buying his CDs

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Christian beats a man to death for not buying his CDs
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 12, 13, 14, 15 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Off-Topic Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:47 am Post subject:

Grimalkin wrote:

But what's the point of giving us free will here if we're not going to have free will for eternity in heaven?

If it's to seperate out the good from the bad again what's the point as nobody has a choice but to be good in heaven?

How do you know that free will won't exist in heaven?

ED209 wrote:

Not going anywhere just questioning the Christian facts.

You have no facts. If Christians are writing the history books and admitting that they are been selective then I would treat that with suspicion.

Tacitus didn't have his work published till the 15th century.
Lucian was born 120 years after Jesus!

Josephus wasn't Christian, but a Jew. You're wrong about Tacitus: his works were published in the first century CE; the earliest extant copies might date to the 15th century, but that doesn't mean that they were only published in the 15th century.

ED209 wrote:

Sure there probably was a Jesus, perhaps many, but not your Jesus.

Prove it.

luvnpeas wrote:

Is the God outdated according to Christianity? You know, the God who likes child rape.

You're going to have to be more specific. I know you're probably getting your information second-hand and haven't likely even looked up the passages in a real Bible, let alone taken the time to examine the cultural and sociological significance of these passages, but for the time being, some specific references to "child rape" in the Bible would be great.

I have serious doubts whether it will even matter: it's not like you or your kind care about anything more than superficial attacks on the Bible and Christianity in particular and religion in general. I'll humour you if you want, but admit it: there's not a single thing I could write that could get you to change your mind, right? This isn't just directed towards luvnpeas; any of the haters in this thread are fully welcome to answer this question as well.

luvnpeas wrote:

The one who is supposedly omnipotent but unable to allow free will without evil.

Just because I can spank my child every single minute of every single day, it doesn't mean that it's in his best interest to do so. Just because God can allow free will without evil, it doesn't mean it's in our best interest to do so.

ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:53 am Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

there's not a single thing I could write that could get you to change your mind, right?

Well you did say...

Missile Command Kid wrote:

I should say that I'm not here to convince anybody of anything.

So I suppose you should stop.

As for proving it, that is what you have failed to do. And claiming people here who don't agree with you are haters is a bit poor.

I know Josephus was a Jew I was referring to those Christians like Eusebius who quote him hundreds of years later.

Sorry I meant to say that the quotes from Tacitus did not appear until the 15th century. Even our friend Eusebius was not aware of Tacitus references to Jesus, though he was like many early Christian scholars familiar with Tacitus works at that time.

Anyway as I pointed out before there is already a thread on the existence of Jesus. If you can resurrect it please do, till then I'm keeping it to Killer Christians and CDs. Which I believe is more to do with mental illness than religion.

ttfn

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:05 am Post subject:

ED209 wrote:

And claiming people here who don't agree with you are haters is a bit poor.

I'm not using "hater" in the pejorative sense - I'm using it as an accurate description of people on this site with regard to religion. Perhaps that wasn't clear from the context, so let me make it crystal here: when I say "hater," I'm referring to those of you who have consciously chosen to attack and criticise organised religion and who are fundamentally opposed to any and all evidence that might prove them wrong. I could very accurately describe Dawkins as a "hater," for instance, and I'm sure he would take up the title and run with it.

Are you really telling me that you don't hate religion? Really? Why in the world would you debate with somebody like me unless you did?

ED209 wrote:

Even our friend Eusebius was not aware of Tacitus references to Jesus, though he was like many early Christian scholars familiar with Tacitus works at that time.

Just because Eusebius was familiar with some of Josephus' work, or even a particular version of the Antiquities, that doesn't necessarily mean that he laid his eyes on the particular version that we have today. This is all irrelevant anyway, as it goes to prove nothing. I would like to hear any explanation for your statement "Sure there probably was a Jesus, perhaps many, but not your Jesus."

ED209 wrote:

As for proving it, that is what you have failed to do.

Proving what, exactly? That Jesus Christ is God, died, and was resurrected from the dead? This is an unprovable claim. Rather, it's an article of faith.

Grimalkin

Joined: 22 May 2005

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:28 am Post subject:

mithridates wrote:

Grimalkin wrote:

But what's the point of giving us free will here if we're not going to have free will for eternity in heaven?

I don't know. When I think 'eternity' I think something _outside_ of time, not just a really long time. Anything like that is pretty much beyond my imagination so I don't bother giving it any thought except as a mental exercise (i.e. I don't pretend to know what eternity would really be like).

I'm not so much asking about the nature of eternity. Look at this quote below from your previous post.

Quote:

"Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you will find that you have excluded life itself".

So heaven is supposed to be a place where "the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve" is excluded right?

But the author feels this excludes life itself....yet heaven is supposed to eternal life! Confused

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

luvnpeas wrote:

If Christianity were supported by fact and reason, you wouldn't need faith. There are also the usual problems....Creationism, Noah's ark, Jonah, etc.

You're talking a lot about "Christianity." Why not Judaism? Christians respect the Old Testament as it's part of our history, but a lot of the laws are outdated according to Christianity. Just for a change of pace, why not criticise Judaism for a while? You know, Jewish hypocrisy, modern Judaism being delusional, those sort of attacks.

Quit avoiding the issue. That's all you're doing.

Have you read the article I posted on the last page that specifically answered your question?

If you read my reply you'll see I didn't ask you a question, I merely pointed out your blatantly trying to change the subject to avoid the issue..

Quote:

Get back to me when you're willing to put some work into this conversation. Your hatred and intolerance is getting old, son

No need to cry about it.

I really don't care about you enough to hate you, but your sly obfuscation of the issues is worth pointing out.

Last edited by Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat on Tue May 01, 2007 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

There's a very, very clear reason for why evil exists, despite the presence of a caring, omnipotent God. God endowed humanity - and, in fact, all of creation - with free will. It's tradition within the church that Lucifer, a fallen angel, has been attempting to corrupt creation since the fall. (Don't take my word for it - The Birth of Satan: Tracing the Devil's Biblical Roots by T.J. Wray and Gregory Mobley is a good book on the subject.) The gift of free will was such that creation itself was allowed to choose to do good or to do evil, and our ancestors chose rebellion. This is the origin of evil.

"In opposition to the aristocratic value equations (good = noble = powerful = beautiful = fortunate = loved by god), the Jews, with a consistency inspiring fear, dared to reverse it and to hang on to that with the teeth of the most profound hatred (the hatred [felt by the] powerless), that is, to �only those who suffer are good; the poor, the powerless, the low are the only good people; the suffering, those in need, the sick, the ugly are also the only pious people; only they are blessed by God; for them alone there is salvation. By contrast, you privileged and powerful people, you are for all eternity the evil, the cruel, the lecherous, the insatiable, the godless�you will also be the unblessed, the cursed, and the damned for all eternity!� . . . We know who inherited this Judaic transformation of values . . . "

" imagine for yourself �the enemy� as a man of resentment conceives him�and right here we have his action, his creation: he has conceptualized �the evil enemy,� �the evil one,� as a fundamental idea�and from that he now thinks his way to an opposite image and counterpart, a �good man��himself! "

-Nietzsche

Quote:

Notice that Epicurus can't even answer his own question, but needs to resort to a rhetorical question and moves on to his second point, leading gullible listeners to assume that this third question is in fact unanswerable. I didn't bother to respond to the statement at first because it's logical nonsense. You can't base an assertion on an unanswered question or the assumed answer to a question.

Just admit you don't know!! Rolling Eyes

You've avoided it (twice now) because you're not able to reconcile such common sense with your ongoing sophistry and obfuscation. The implications of that quote are obvious to anyone with an open mind.

Quote:

Not using "hater" in the "pejorative" sense?!? Laughing

What in sam hell are you talking about? Now I think you're really projecting... Rolling Eyes

Honestly, while I find your religion fairly laughable and on the whole quite disgusting (this is my opinion), that's about it. Hatred is something else altogether, born from vengence, or perhaps jealousy, of which I feel neither. Basically, the way you not only cling stubbornly to your faith in the face of mountains of evidence and common sense, but actually try to rationalise it (using empty rhetoric mainly), I find to be, depending on my mood, either sad or amusing, and at times reprehensible. But "hatred" never enters in on it (I guess I enjoy life too much to bother hating anything, unlike many Christians I know)...

luvnpeas

Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

luvnpeas wrote:

Is the God outdated according to Christianity? You know, the God who likes child rape.

I already quoted the passage at length....there are so many religious threads at the moment that it may have been a different thread. But, I'm pretty sure you were involved.

So far, whenever a concrete argument is presented against your conclusions, you change the topic or ignore it. You've been presented with a number of logical refutations of some god based on the Bible--you ignored the one I presented directly to you, you pretended the one from Epicurus didn't "count", and you misconstrued others as being about the New Covenant, and so on.

Quote:

I have serious doubts whether it will even matter: it's not like you or your kind care about anything more than superficial attacks on the Bible...any of the haters in this thread

Fundamentalists never seem sincere for long. The guys who proselytize in public always say they want to talk to you about God, suggesting an open-minded discussion of a topic. What they really mean is that they want to push their religious views, with no intent to open-mindedly consider the possibility they are wrong (only you are supposed to consider that).

The ones here never go long without name-calling.

Quote:

luvnpeas wrote:

The one who is supposedly omnipotent but unable to allow free will without evil.

Address the topic, please.

mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject:

Grimalkin wrote:

mithridates wrote:

Grimalkin wrote:

But what's the point of giving us free will here if we're not going to have free will for eternity in heaven?

I'm not so much asking about the nature of eternity. Look at this quote below from your previous post.

Quote:

"Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you will find that you have excluded life itself".

Perhaps. Like I said, trying to imagine anything about heaven is a bit of a stretch. But let's not forget that good people only cause harm to others due to a lack of sympathy or insight - the moment a person really realizes that they're causing harm to somebody (really realizes it, like when a person berating a friend suddenly sees them break down and cry, often the only way to get the point across to a person who hasn't been giving any thought to what he's saying), they stop.
It seems to me that a great deal of the harm caused in the world comes from a lack of insight and too much self-absorption, like you can see on the board here. If I somehow had the insight to know, for example, that the person I was directing my clever insult of the day (perhaps the classic "pot. kettle. black! Haha! Eat that, poster!") was actually on the verge of taking his own life I daresay that all the free will in the world wouldn't make me want to add an inch to his sufferings.
Once again, I'm not sure you've given enough thought to the word 'eternal'. One of my favourite authors (actually, I think this was taken from one of his speeches, but I don't remember) wrote about the issue thus:

Quote:

The great mystics and masters in the East will say, "Who are you?" Many think the most important question in the world is: "Who is Jesus Christ?" Wrong!

Many think it is: "Does God exist?" Wrong! Many think it is "Is there a life after death?" Wrong! Nobody seems to be grappling with the problem of: Is there a life before death? Yet my experience is that it's precisely the ones who don't know what to do with this life who are all hot and bothered about what they are going to do with another life. One sign that you're awakened is that you don't give a damn about what's going to happen in the next life. You're not bothered about it; you don't care. You are not interested, period.

Do you know what eternal life is? You think it's everlasting life. But your own theologians will tell you that that is crazy, because everlasting is still within time. It is time perduring forever. Eternal means timeless-- no time. The human mind cannot understand that. The human mind can understand time and can deny time. What is timeless is beyond our comprehension. Yet the mystics tell us that eternity is right now. How's that for good news? It is right now. People are so distressed when I tell them to forget their past. They're crazy! Just drop it! When you hear "Repent for your past," realize it's a great religious distraction from waking up. Wake up! That's what repent means. Not "weep for your sins.": Wake up! understand, stop all the crying. Understand! Wake up!

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Quote:

Just admit you don't know!! Rolling Eyes

Sigh. I realise that Christianity disgusts you, but could you do me a favour and simply read what I've written? You even quoted my answer:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Mountains of evidence and common sense? Funny guy. You're playing semantical games with making a distinction between "I'm disgusted by Christianity" and "I hate Christianity." Thanks for coming out and admitting your true feelings, though.

luvnpeas wrote:

I already quoted the passage at length....there are so many religious threads at the moment that it may have been a different thread. But, I'm pretty sure you were involved.

Sorry, no. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

luvnpeas wrote:

So far, whenever a concrete argument is presented against your conclusions, you change the topic or ignore it. You've been presented with a number of logical refutations of some god based on the Bible--you ignored the one I presented directly to you...

Which one? I went back three pages and found the following two comments: one, an uncited claim that the God of Christianity and Judaism likes child rape, and two, that "Modern Christianity is a delusion in two ways: 1) it is not supported by its own sacred texts, and 2) it is not supported by fact or reason." I asked you to show me why Christianity is not supported by fact or reason, but you ignored my comment and changed the topic. I answered the Epicurus quote - do me a favour and substantiate anything else you've said in this thread.

luvnpeas wrote:

...you pretended the one from Epicurus didn't "count"...

Again:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

luvnpeas wrote:

What they really mean is that they want to push their religious views, with no intent to open-mindedly consider the possibility they are wrong...

You've got to give me something substantial for me to reconsider my beliefs.

luvnpeas wrote:

Address the topic, please.

I already did, thanks. Cite your sources, please.

Last edited by Missile Command Kid on Tue May 01, 2007 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Quote:

Just admit you don't know!! Rolling Eyes

Sigh. I realise that Christianity disgusts you, but could you do me a favour and simply read what I've written? You even quoted my answer:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

You haven't really answered it. All you've said is that god allows evil to exist, and then try to excuse it via free will. Still doesn't explain how your god allows innocents to be murdered etc. Free choice has nothing to do with that. Innocent people don't choose to be murdered (but since you think we're all evil anyway Rolling Eyes

I realize that probably doesn't deter you).

Quote:

Mountains of evidence and common sense? Funny guy.

Yeah, real funny.

Quote:

You're playing semantical games with making a distinction between "I'm disgusted by Christianity" and "I hate Christianity." Thanks for coming out and admitting your true feelings, though.

I trust even a passive aggressive type like you can easily see the difference. And you're welcome. I will continue to call you on your BS as I see fit. And rest assured I do it out of love. Wink

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

I asked you to show me why Christianity is not supported by fact or reasaon

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Proving what, exactly? That Jesus Christ is God, died, and was resurrected from the dead? This is an unprovable claim. Rather, it's an article of faith.

This is why in the end it's pointless to debate you people. You wanna have your cake and eat it too. Seriously, if someone were to say "I realise that it's absurd to believe in flying pink elephants orbiting the moon, but I choose to believe it anyway", then I'd say "whatever - that's your business". Same goes for your belief in god and jesus. But just leave it at that then and quit trying to rationalize it. Your unwillingness to admit once and for all that it's not supported by fact and reason is just an insult to our intelligence, and exposes your sophistry for what it is: smoke and mirrors.

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

I asked you to show me why Christianity is not supported by fact or reasaon

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Proving what, exactly? That Jesus Christ is God, died, and was resurrected from the dead? This is an unprovable claim. Rather, it's an article of faith.

This is why in the end it's pointless to debate you people. You wanna have your cake and eat it too. Seriously, if someone were to say "I realise that it's absurd to believe in flying pink elephants orbiting the moon, but I choose to believe it anyway", then I'd say "whatever - that's your business". Same goes for your belief in god and jesus. But just leave it at that then and quit trying to rationalize it. That fact that can't even admit it's not supported by fact and reason is just an insult to our intelligence, and exposes your sophistry for what it is: smoke and mirrors.

You've completely, completely misunderstood me. I agree that the existence of Jesus as God cannot be proven. But you'll notice that the first quote is a question, not a statement. Whatshisname said that Christianity is not supported by fact or reason. I asked him to prove his statement. Just because I agree that the existence of Jesus and/or God cannot be empirically proven, that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop expecting people to back up their claims with reason or proof.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

You haven't really answered it. All you've said is that god allows evil to exist...

That was the extent of Epicurus's statement. Epicurus wonders where evil comes from. I answered the question. If you want to go on and ask other questions, such as "Why do bad things happen to good people," you're going to have to ask it rather than assume that I know what you're thinking.

EDIT: One more quick point: just because something can't be proven by your limited empiricial materialistic worldview, it doesn't mean that it's absurd. That's your assumption, but it's not necessarily true.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

I asked you to show me why Christianity is not supported by fact or reasaon

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Proving what, exactly? That Jesus Christ is God, died, and was resurrected from the dead? This is an unprovable claim. Rather, it's an article of faith.

This is why in the end it's pointless to debate you people. You wanna have your cake and eat it too. Seriously, if someone were to say "I realise that it's absurd to believe in flying pink elephants orbiting the moon, but I choose to believe it anyway", then I'd say "whatever - that's your business". Same goes for your belief in god and jesus. But just leave it at that then and quit trying to rationalize it. That fact that can't even admit it's not supported by fact and reason is just an insult to our intelligence, and exposes your sophistry for what it is: smoke and mirrors.

It's already self evident, it requires no proof:

"Whatshisname" had already wrote:

If Christianity were supported by fact and reason, you wouldn't need faith

What, do you need him to cite that too? Rolling Eyes

Missile Command Kid wrote:

That was the extent of Epicurus's statement. Epicurus wonders where evil comes from. I answered the question.

No, you didn't. You merely made an attempt that wasn't good enough.

Quote:

If you want to go on and ask other questions, such as "Why do bad things happen to good people," you're going to have to ask it rather than assume that I know what you're thinking.

Okay then, go on. But allow me to rephrase it: "why does god allow bad things to happen to good (and or innocent) people"?

Quote:

EDIT: One more quick point: just because something can't be proven by your limited empiricial materialistic worldview, it doesn't mean that it's absurd. That's your assumption, but it's not necessarily true.

Don't overcomplicate it. It can't be proven, period.

Missile Command Kid

Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

It's already self evident, it requires no proof:

"Whatshisname" had already wrote:

If Christianity were supported by fact and reason, you wouldn't need faith

What, do you need him to cite that too? Rolling Eyes

What makes you think that reason and faith are mutually exclusive?

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

That was the extent of Epicurus's statement. Epicurus wonders where evil comes from. I answered the question.

No, you didn't. You merely made an attempt that wasn't good enough.

According to you. In accordance with Biblical theology, I fully answered the question. If you don't ascribe to that world view and don't accept my answer, that's not my problem.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Okay then, go on. But allow me to rephrase it: "why does god allow bad things to happen to good (and or innocent) people"?

What makes you think there is such a creature as a good and/or innocent person? This again is going to cause a problem with us, as according to Christian theology, the only good and innocent entity is God. The rest of us are sinful, fallen humans. In other words, the question, in my opinion, is based on a faulty assertion and can't be answered.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

It's already self evident, it requires no proof:

"Whatshisname" had already wrote:

If Christianity were supported by fact and reason, you wouldn't need faith

What, do you need him to cite that too? Rolling Eyes

What makes you think that reason and faith are mutually exclusive?

Ponder it awhile. It'll come to you.

Quote:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Missile Command Kid wrote:

That was the extent of Epicurus's statement. Epicurus wonders where evil comes from. I answered the question.

No, you didn't. You merely made an attempt that wasn't good enough.

According to you. In accordance with Biblical theology, I fully answered the question. If you don't ascribe to that world view and don't accept my answer, that's not my problem.

You've got nothing, and you're less bright than I realised. Sorry but it's obvious.

Quote:

This is why yours is a slanderous religion. It is a blight upon humanity and everything that is real and good.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Off-Topic Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 12, 13, 14, 15 Next
Page 13 of 15

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe