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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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mithridates
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Perhaps. Like I said, trying to imagine anything about heaven is a bit of a stretch. But let's not forget that good people only cause harm to others due to a lack of sympathy or insight - the moment a person really realizes that they're causing harm to somebody (really realizes it, like when a person berating a friend suddenly sees them break down and cry, often the only way to get the point across to a person who hasn't been giving any thought to what he's saying), they stop.
It seems to me that a great deal of the harm caused in the world comes from a lack of insight and too much self-absorption, like you can see on the board here. If I somehow had the insight to know, for example, that the person I was directing my clever insult of the day (perhaps the classic "pot. kettle. black! Haha! Eat that, poster!") was actually on the verge of taking his own life I daresay that all the free will in the world wouldn't make me want to add an inch to his sufferings. |
Cool! I totally agree with what you are saying here. It's interesting that both of us coming from very different philosophies (yours christian my atheistic) have such similar ideas on this point.
I've seen this in my own life. In the past I've suddenly had insight into how some behaviour of mine is causing someone else to suffer (and like you said it was purely self absorption that prevented me from seeing it from the beginning). When I had that insight it became impossible for me to continue the behaviour. It wasn't that I chose to stop, it was more that the insight rendered me incapable of continuing.
A few years ago when I started reading about buddhism I began to wonder if their concept of enlightenment was equivalent to this idea of insight. In other words was an enlightened person one who had total insight into the harm bad actions do and thus as a result of this total insight/enlightenment they become incapable of doing bad.
Sometimes I also wonder if education can serve as a form of this insight (tho' less strong). I've noticed in myself an instictive racism (I suspect all humans are inherently racist) but education has taught me that acting in a racist manner is wrong so I control my impulses.
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Once again, I'm not sure you've given enough thought to the word 'eternal'. One of my favourite authors (actually, I think this was taken from one of his speeches, but I don't remember) wrote about the issue thus:
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Two points.
Firstly in this discussion the issue of eternity was not the one I was focusing on. It was the issue of free will. What I was trying to say was why do we have free will now when we will not have it in eternity (no matter how you care to define it).
Secondly my failure to grasp the concept of eternity is not due to my not giving it enough thought (unfortunately!), it's more to do with the fact that no matter how much thought I give it I can't quite grasp it (so I guess it's more a question of quality of thought rather than quantity of thought). I do think about it a lot tho' and I wonder if it's the same as the absense of time which would also mean the absense of change. In that case because of the link between space and time that would also mean the absense of all dimensions....in that case it would mean that eternity and nothingness were the same??? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Why does God allow evil?
1. It is a matter of free will. God will force no man to heaven.
2. This life is a test, if we pass it we get to go to heaven. See point 1 above. It is our choice by our conduct.
3. I reject the idea that "accepting Jesus" as you personal Savior is all the is necessary. He is part of it, but there is more. "For it is by faith you are saved, after all you can do."
4. Why do bad things happen to good people. In some cases because bad people do bad things to them. In others its "the luck of the draw". It is not whether you have the problems but how you deal with them.
4. Is God all powerful. Yes. Can he do anyhting he wants. There are some things he doesn't desire doing. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Missile Command Kid wrote: |
| I asked you to show me why Christianity is not supported by fact or reason, but you ignored my comment and changed the topic. |
Oh tsk, lying. Bad form. I answered you with the baisc answers--Creationism, etc. You responded by complaining that I wasn't attacking Jews.
All this after a previous example from Plato which you requested and then didn't address:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=1146477
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| I answered the Epicurus quote |
You did not. The Epicurus argument is a rejection of the position you gave in response. You just repeated the position that was rejected. Free will is not an explanation of evil in the presence of a good God, when God is omnipotent. If God is omnipotent, he can create a world containing both free will and pure goodness (in fact, that is the definition of the Kingdon of Heaven).
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| You've got to give me something substantial for me to reconsider my beliefs. |
Impossible, when your belief is that nothing is more substantial than your religious belief. So stop pretending to be open-minded. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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missle said:
"Free will is not an explanation of evil in the presence of a good God, when God is omnipotent. If God is omnipotent, he can create a world containing both free will and pure goodness (in fact, that is the definition of the Kingdon of Heaven). "
The Kingdom of Heaven is a place of eternal progression as well as perfection (goodness). But, you have to earn the right to get there. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
missle said:
"Free will is not an explanation of evil in the presence of a good God, when God is omnipotent. If God is omnipotent, he can create a world containing both free will and pure goodness (in fact, that is the definition of the Kingdon of Heaven). "
The Kingdom of Heaven is a place of eternal progression as well as perfection (goodness). But, you have to earn the right to get there. |
That's not good |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
mithridates
| Quote: |
Perhaps. Like I said, trying to imagine anything about heaven is a bit of a stretch. But let's not forget that good people only cause harm to others due to a lack of sympathy or insight - the moment a person really realizes that they're causing harm to somebody (really realizes it, like when a person berating a friend suddenly sees them break down and cry, often the only way to get the point across to a person who hasn't been giving any thought to what he's saying), they stop.
It seems to me that a great deal of the harm caused in the world comes from a lack of insight and too much self-absorption, like you can see on the board here. If I somehow had the insight to know, for example, that the person I was directing my clever insult of the day (perhaps the classic "pot. kettle. black! Haha! Eat that, poster!") was actually on the verge of taking his own life I daresay that all the free will in the world wouldn't make me want to add an inch to his sufferings. |
Cool! I totally agree with what you are saying here. It's interesting that both of us coming from very different philosophies (yours christian my atheistic) have such similar ideas on this point.
I've seen this in my own life. In the past I've suddenly had insight into how some behaviour of mine is causing someone else to suffer (and like you said it was purely self absorption that prevented me from seeing it from the beginning). When I had that insight it became impossible for me to continue the behaviour. It wasn't that I chose to stop, it was more that the insight rendered me incapable of continuing.
A few years ago when I started reading about buddhism I began to wonder if their concept of enlightenment was equivalent to this idea of insight. In other words was an enlightened person one who had total insight into the harm bad actions do and thus as a result of this total insight/enlightenment they become incapable of doing bad.
Sometimes I also wonder if education can serve as a form of this insight (tho' less strong). I've noticed in myself an instictive racism (I suspect all humans are inherently racist) but education has taught me that acting in a racist manner is wrong so I control my impulses.
| Quote: |
Once again, I'm not sure you've given enough thought to the word 'eternal'. One of my favourite authors (actually, I think this was taken from one of his speeches, but I don't remember) wrote about the issue thus:
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Two points.
Firstly in this discussion the issue of eternity was not the one I was focusing on. It was the issue of free will. What I was trying to say was why do we have free will now when we will not have it in eternity (no matter how you care to define it).
Secondly my failure to grasp the concept of eternity is not due to my not giving it enough thought (unfortunately!), it's more to do with the fact that no matter how much thought I give it I can't quite grasp it (so I guess it's more a question of quality of thought rather than quantity of thought). I do think about it a lot tho' and I wonder if it's the same as the absense of time which would also mean the absense of change. In that case because of the link between space and time that would also mean the absense of all dimensions....in that case it would mean that eternity and nothingness were the same??? |
That's good that we agree on those points above - I suspected you might. I guess I didn't mean that you yourself failed to grasp the concept of eternity so much as that most people tend to confuse the concept of eternity with 'a very long time', something that it most certainly is not. Just got back from Spiderman and it's late so I can't think of anything else to write but it's good to see that a thread with an op such as this one has still managed to turn out some interesting discussion. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Why does God allow evil?
1. It is a matter of free will. God will force no man to heaven. |
Apparently he will force many to endure evil. Where's the free will in that? Why is there more free will in enduring evil than in enduring heaven?
Again (and again and again): you can't explain the actions of an omnipotent god by explaining that he had no choice. For example...he had no choice in allowing evil if he wanted us to have free will. An omnipotent god is not limited by the rules logic. God created evil because he wanted there to be evil. Good people suffer because God wants good people to suffer. Which means that God is not good.
Sinc the Christian God is said to be both omnipotent and good, the Christian God must not exist.
QED.
| Quote: |
| 4. Is God all powerful. Yes. Can he do anyhting he wants. There are some things he doesn't desire doing. |
A good god desires goodness.
P.S. The quote about the Kingdom of heaven, which you attribute to "missle command", came from me. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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luvnpeas, you're not alone.
Mark Twain reasoned the same way. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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That was a failed mission started by a fallen leader (Ted Haggert) who couldn't follow religious principles himself.
To whatever extent any of us - inspired by the pure devotion of a great soul (mahatma) actually develops any love for God during this life, that spiritual progress will carry over to our next birth.
Unfortunately, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam seem to be somewhat short on mahatmas at the present time, but sincere followers of any religious tradition can be empowered with the necessary wisdom to lead others on the right path.
When so-called religious leaders and spiritual masters do all kinds of materialistic nonsense it's extremely offensive, and many followers lose faith in God. Some (directly or indirectly influenced by a bad leader) even go berserk and kill people - like the guy in Colorado...
Jesus stressed "Thou Shalt Not Kill", but unnecessary killing of all types continues - especially in slaughterhouses ... |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| . . . and in the Bible. |
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whatever
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Location: Korea: More fun than jail.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| ...and on message boards. |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ...doesn't killing people with a rock make you NOT a practicing christian? Shouldn't the title be ex-christian kills man? Why if you say I'm a christian, do something unchristian, are you still a christian? If you bet on baseball you're not a baseball player, you're an ex-base ball player. If you're Michael Vick you're an ex-NFL player. If you're a chrstiian, you can't get booted from the club? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| ...doesn't killing people with a rock make you NOT a practicing christian? Shouldn't the title be ex-christian kills man? Why if you say I'm a christian, do something unchristian, are you still a christian? If you bet on baseball you're not a baseball player, you're an ex-base ball player. If you're Michael Vick you're an ex-NFL player. If you're a chrstiian, you can't get booted from the club? |
Are you no longer a christian if you have premarital sex? If you're divorced and remarry? Both of these seem to be quite against the rules. |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| er yes. You are no longer a 'christian' if you commit one single mortal sin. HA! I'm going to hell. Well Most likely. Catholics don't have that assurance of salvation stuff. But we do have guaranteed damnation clauses. |
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