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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: On Nazi Analogies: Godwin's Law... |
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Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a mainstay of Internet culture, an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
Godwin's Law does not dispute whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued, that overuse of the Nazi/Hitler comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.
Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions, the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.
Godwin has stated that he introduced Godwin's law as an experiment in memetics.
There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. Thus Godwin's Law serves to impose an upper bound on thread length in general. It is considered poor form to raise arbitrarily such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").
Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime. Instead, it applies to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations to Hitler or Nazis. However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to fallaciously miscast an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparison that the argument made were actually appropriate. |
Wikipedia's Summary |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Godwin sounds like a real Nazi. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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kyber,
I'll take a pass on this one....in any case , you've lost. Typical of Gopher though -- seeing chat room discussion as a case of winner/loser. I think we should condone that type of analogy. Sounds too supremacist to me.
DD |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: On Nazi Analogies: Godwin's Law... |
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| Gopher wrote: |
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| However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to fallaciously miscast an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparison that the argument made were actually appropriate. |
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Quoted for truth. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. |
That's bloody silly. As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving any particular thing approaches one.
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There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. Thus Godwin's Law serves to impose an upper bound on thread length in general. It is considered poor form to raise arbitrarily such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").
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This is interesting, but still can not be applied as a hard and fast rule. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Godwin sounds like a real Nazi. |
Testing the law?  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. |
My understanding is not that the person has lost or the thread is finished, but it is point where the thread (to use another internetism) has jumped the shark. The real debate is over and it's all just silly name calling. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| My understanding is not that... |
Agree with your reading of this. Actually discussed this -- and the article that has already been hacked to death, even if that is only partly why I started this thread, and I must admit, yes, it is partly why I started this thread -- with two full professors of modern European history yesterday.
When one invokes "the Nazis" in a comparative context one is not usually aiming to exchange views but rather to antagonize. As you recognize here, at this point there is really no point in going on -- especially if at least one side has already made up its mind; doubly so, of course, if both. |
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