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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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| Will you date someone who eats dogs? |
| I eat dogs myself. |
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49% |
[ 31 ] |
| I don't eat dogs my self but am happy to date someone who does. |
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22% |
[ 14 ] |
| I will try to ask them not to eat dogs either, then date them |
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4% |
[ 3 ] |
| I won't date someone who eats dogs, but am happy to be friends with them |
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15% |
[ 10 ] |
| I will not make friends with those who eat dogs. |
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7% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 63 |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Just think how many dogs were eaten during the time it took to type all that. |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:07 am Post subject: |
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If morality didn't come from human experience, where did it come from? |
Huh? Is that another of your tautologies? |
Sorry...typo...and I don't think questions can be tautologies...and that is what that is...a question...
If you don't think morality came from human experience, where did it come from?
Slavery...the North was perfectly happy to allow the South to have slaves. They just didn't want anymore slaves states. I don't think this is taking the moral high ground.
Regardless, the realization that they practice is wrong would not neccesarily come from your universal morality...it may have come about from experiencing the pain of the slaves producing a change of heart and in doing added them to their own moral community... or it may have come from a fear of rebellion as history tells us that slaves do rebel and it is not a good thing for the masters. It is clear at the time they abolished slavery in their colonies, no English men were slaves. Inside their own moral community, slavery was immoral.
Even if we accept that there is some universal morality, at no point have you proven that this universal moralityhas been brought to us from sponsor unknown.
There might be morality inherent in the system...in my opinion it is a learned morality through human experience...in yours...brought down from above by the guy who wrote "Thou shall not kill"...we disagree. But since I don't believe that their is any big guy responsible for a universal code, I must believe that morality came from humans themselves.
You can use the woman in the Middle East as an example of a moral wrong. But you haven't proven that that sense of morality is universal. Stoning people for being unfaithful would also be immoral to most from a human experience point of view as you end up killing off most of your village. That would not be good for the community, therefore the action would be seen as immoral.
And a great number of executions go on in countries without stoning. I am not against the death penalty for some crimes, and I don't belive that execution in and of itself is immoral...how it is used or misused in many cases has made particular case immoral...but the actual act of punishing some with the loss of their life...I don't think that is immoral.
I do believe there may be some universal moral codes. But as I said, I believe that we learned them from human exeperience through the ages, and I believe morality centers around how we deal with the members of our community. Dogs are not part of my moral community, therefore, I don't speak in terms of morality when discussing instances of dog cruelty.
I don't accept #2, sorry. Cruel to be kind in the right measure...
Drill sergents are cruel to new recruits and I not think people would call it immoral. Coaches are often called cruel by their players...doesn't make them immoral. One student called a project of mine cruel..mental pain...I don't think it made me immoral teacher.
I don't accept it because I would say that only cruelty to humans in immoral. So I don't accept 'always'.
You can say it as much as you want. But you have not proved that I should include animals in my moral community. The article did have some good points. I don't accept them. Animals are not part of my moral community. And I am not alone...your article had its critics as well.
Please remember that...despite me not wanting to call the torture of dogs immoral...I am against it.
PS
I don't want you to be my monkey...then you wouldn't be in my moral community. Besides it would be immoral of me to keep a monkey as a pet, or to have one dance... |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| People that eat slaughtered cows are lower than dog eaters (but it's considered perfectly acceptable in low-class cultures ...) |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Scott in Incheon wrote: |
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If morality did come from human experience, where did it come from? |
Huh? Is that another of your tautologies? |
Sorry...typo...and I don't think questions can be tautologies...and that is what that is...a question... |
The answer is a tautology. And meaningless.
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| If you don't think morality came from human experience, where did it come from? |
Look up "a priori" and get back to me.
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| Slavery...the North was perfectly happy to allow the South to have slaves. They just didn't want anymore slaves states. I don't think this is taking the moral high ground. |
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| Regardless, the realization that they practice is wrong would not neccesarily come from your universal morality...it may have come about from experiencing the pain of the slaves producing a change of heart and in doing added them to their own moral community... or it may have come from a fear of rebellion as history tells us that slaves do rebel and it is not a good thing for the masters. It is clear at the time they abolished slavery in their colonies, no English men were slaves. Inside their own moral community, slavery was immoral. |
You don't really know what you are talking about. Seriously, if you wanna speculate, do it on your own time.
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| Even if we accept that there is some universal morality, at no point have you proven that this universal moralityhas been brought to us from sponsor unknown. |
I am not interested here in where it came from originally. As far as I know it is unprovable, and irrelevant anyway to the discussion at hand. The question has no bearing here. The real question is "how is morality, given that it is"?
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| There might be morality inherent in the system...in my opinion it is a learned morality through human experience...in yours...brought down from above by the guy who wrote "Thou shall not kill"...we disagree. But since I don't believe that their is any big guy responsible for a universal code, I must believe that morality came from humans themselves. |
Well if you think I believe in commandments you are mistaken. I am an aetheist. However the human condition is such that universal morals apply. Again, look up "moral imperative" and get back to me.
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| You can use the woman in the Middle East as an example of a moral wrong. But you haven't proven that that sense of morality is universal. Stoning people for being unfaithful would also be immoral to most from a human experience point of view as you end up killing off most of your village. That would not be good for the community, therefore the action would be seen as immoral. |
All you are arguing is moral relativism. This is nothing new. Honestly I'm not going to go down that path because it leads nowhere. You could justify literally anything and just claim the universe is an indifferent meaningless place so it doesn't matter. Nevertheless here we are. I won't claim such a thing as human nature per se, but we do have instincts that influence our behaviour. There appears to be universal moral imperatives, such as killing and raping and cruel behaviour are bad. I have already suggested that these are inherent - that they may be overridden by social convention does not change the fact that they are immoral. If you don't accept this premise, then too bad. So far you've essentially justified cruelty to animals, slavery, and murder. Way to go.
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| And a great number of executions go on in countries without stoning. I am not against the death penalty for some crimes, and I don't belive that execution in and of itself is immoral...how it is used or misused in many cases has made particular case immoral...but the actual act of punishing some with the loss of their life...I don't think that is immoral. |
Okay so what you are really saying (if you cut the crap) is that you don't think stoning is immoral. Yes, you are.
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| I do believe there may be some universal moral codes. But as I said, I believe that we learned them from human exeperience through the ages, and I believe morality centers around how we deal with the members of our community. Dogs are not part of my moral community, therefore, I don't speak in terms of morality when discussing instances of dog cruelty. |
1) Your logic is non sequitur. Just because our morals may be learned from human experience as you say, it does not therefore follow at all that animals are to be excluded. You haven't even made an attempt to show why this would be the case. You are basing your whole silly argument on this assumption, which is absurd.
2)It is easy to argue that dogs are a part of the "moral community" of humans (as I've done). Just because you don't respect them as intelligent beings doesn't change this. Maybe, for instance, you don't consider a certain race to be "quite" human - you could therefore rationalise excluding it from the equation too. You see why your conclusion is arbitrary and amounts to a load of rubbish.
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| I don't accept #2, sorry. Cruel to be kind in the right measure... |
You are deliberately misinterpreting the terms to avoid the point. What you describe is not really cruelty and you know it. If you want to be pedantic about it, I'll amend my definition for you then: all sadistic, expoitative and/or unnecessary cruelty is immoral.
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| I don't accept it because I would say that only cruelty to humans in immoral. So I don't accept 'always'. |
So you would ignore the effect of said cruelty on the human who is committing it? Interesting... like I said, you haven't thought about it. The fact that the being in question feels pain and shows it in an undeniable way is what's important. If the person inflicts the pain willfully and without remorse, this is immoral. Whether the bearer of this pain is human or otherwise is completely irrelevant (and you know it).
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| You can say it as much as you want. But you have not proved that I should include animals in my moral community. |
I have. Cruelty is immoral. You are rationalising what you intuitively know to be true. You don't fool me. I could rationalise anything the way you are doing. I could say "I don't consider black people a part of my moral community" (i.e. that I consider them "sub human"), and using your logic I could justify torturing and killing them. In fact this has been done in the past. It was immoral.
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| Please remember that...despite me not wanting to call the torture of dogs immoral...I am against it. |
You are against it because you know it is immoral but just won't admit it. You can try to fool yourself all you want, but you don't fool me.
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PS
I don't want you to be my monkey...then you wouldn't be in my moral community. Besides it would be immoral of me to keep a monkey as a pet, or to have one dance... |
Don't quit your day job. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| pastis wrote: |
| [ There is nothing inevitable about eating dog meat. |
Never said that. People can do what they like and what they feel they need to. Never mentioned the word inevitable. If you are a little bit smart and kind to yourself, you can look around and see things as they are ... can you change the things you don't like? By all means, do. It's the only way the world has ever gotten better.
The world is, as it is, though. If you think you can change people's dietary habits, I applaud you, but I suggest you choose some better and more important targets for change, like eradicatiing nuclear weapons or or trying to prevent cllimate change. The whole thing going in Iraq is a much bigger mess than anything that happens in a bosingtang restaurtant ... But, hey, that's just me.
This excitement you have about what some people choose to have for dinner, just sort of laughable, in my book. Therefore, I will laugh, from time to time ...sorry, if it hurts you, but I'm chuckling a little right now.
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| It's way, way beyond obvious that it's cruel, but you choose to ignore it, writing it off as "just meat", as though said meat were without moral conseqence. |
Never wrote off any cruelty, Agent Smith, just pointed out that it exists all around us. ALL food is murder. Might be nice if I could plug myself into a socket and get solar energy directly, without having to worry about carbs and cholesterol, and, oh yeah, just remembered, another living creature died to provide my next 24 hours of life - things ain't like that yet, though.
That's all I'm saying. and it doesn't sound all that radical, not to my ears.
Your talk of morality is a waste of air, since I've already said it is nothing that exists outside of our own heads. I'm am an optimist, though, and I think that people can be kind and good to each other without a stick hanging over our heads from some imagined deity that says "DO THIS" and "DON'T DO THAT."
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Maybe I will. Not in any figurative sense, however. |
But then, THAT would be immoral. And you don't want that ... because whatever you think it "moral" is very important to you, or so it seems.
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| Cruelty exists in the world every minute of every day. Look at it. Deal with it. Change those parts of it that you can control personally and effect yourself and the people nearby. |
Ha. Gotcha "the Bobster". "Change those parts of it that you can control", you say. Such as eating dog meat or any meat (which entails cruelty). Looks like I win the debate, thanks to you. |
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Um, do you REALLY think think you can change what middle-aged Korean men decide to eat in the summertiime? I commend you for your optimism and your excessive regard for your ability to change life in a country you likely know very little about ... I commend you, but I will not agree that there is anything wise about it.
It's late and I'm tired. Been a nice conversation, but I've got to go home now. Little sleepy. If you like, we can just agree to disagree. That'll be okay with me. Actually, to be honest, very little you have said has been the least bit interesting to me. I'm sure that's my fault and not yours, so please don't be wounded by my honesty ... the world is as it is, and one of the things it is ... is just that pastis is only iteresting to The Bobster for just a little while.
Smiles, anyway. I bear you no ill will. Chow down on whatever you want, just don't ask me or anyone I know to follow the choices YOU make ... boil it down, that's all I been sayin' ... |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| pastis wrote: |
| [ There is nothing inevitable about eating dog meat. |
Never said that. People can do what they like and what they feel they need to. Never mentioned the word inevitable. If you are a little bit smart and kind to yourself, you can look around and see things as they are ... can you change the things you don't like? By all means, do. It's the only way the world has ever gotten better.
The world is, as it is, though. If you think you can change people's dietary habits, I applaud you, but I suggest you choose some better and more important targets for change, like eradicatiing nuclear weapons or or trying to prevent cllimate change. The whole thing going in Iraq is a much bigger mess than anything that happens in a bosingtang restaurtant ... But, hey, that's just me. |
YOU'VE GOT NOTHING. Everything you just wrote was a load of crap. You can speak of degrees all you want, but the point remains: eating dog is immoral. Your comparing it to the Iraq war (which I agree is a bad thing in its own right) is yet another rationalization on your part. You really just don't get it.
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| This excitement you have about what some people choose to have for dinner, just sort of laughable, in my book. Therefore, I will laugh, from time to time ...sorry, if it hurts you, but I'm chuckling a little right now. |
If you're chuckling it's because you're a buffoon. But I'm pretty sure what you're really doing here is trying to salvage what little face you can after being so thoroughly discredited. I've picked apart every point you tried to make and now you're trying to weasle out of it. Typical.
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| Never wrote off any cruelty, Agent Smith, just pointed out that it exists all around us. |
Wrong again. Pointing it out and saying it's ok are not the same. Man you are weak.
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| ALL food is murder. Might be nice if I could plug myself into a socket and get solar energy directly, without having to worry about carbs and cholesterol, and, oh yeah, just remembered, another living creature died to provide my next 24 hours of life - things ain't like that yet, though. |
More weak rationalization on your part. You and I both know the difference between eating animals, which feel complex emotional pain and cry out to show it, and vegetables, which have no feelings, nerves, brains, or anything. Don't try and pull some life force plant-karma rubbish either, because there is no evidence for it whatsoever, unlike with dogs where the pain and suffering they feel is undeniable.
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| That's all I'm saying. and it doesn't sound all that radical, not to my ears. |
That's because in all likelihood you are, at bottom, a callous, uncritical person. Keep your matrix metaphor to yourself where it belongs.
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| Your talk of morality is a waste of air, since I've already said it is nothing that exists outside of our own heads. |
It's not a waste of air. I've said what I've said and just cuz you're too daft to get it, doesn't change the fact that I have run circles around you. Perhaps others will read and learn.
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| I'm am an optimist, though, |
No, you are complacent.
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| and I think that people can be kind and good to each other without a stick hanging over our heads from some imagined deity that says "DO THIS" and "DON'T DO THAT." |
I don't believe in any kind of god, and not once did I ever tell you what to do. I just explained to you what is immoral, that's all.
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| But then, THAT would be immoral. And you don't want that ... because whatever you think it "moral" is very imprtant to you, or so it seems. |
Just making a point. Look up "irony" and get back to me.
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| Um, do you REALLY think think you can change what middle-aged Korean men decide to eat in the summertiime? I commend you for your optimism and your excessive regard for your ability to change life in a country you likely know very little about ... I commend you, but I will not agree that there is anything wise about it. |
I have no delusions about changing anything. I won the debate against you because of my arguments. You won't agree because you are stubborn. Doesn't matter to me. Fools will be fools.
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| It's late and I'm tired. Been a nice conversation, but I've got to go home now. Little sleepy. If you like, we can just agree to disagree. |
I don't agree with you on anything. My points are all there, and it's quite obvious that I was right. I could compromise, but why bother? You've got nothing.
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| That'll be okay with me. Actually, to be honest, very little you have said has been the least bit interesting to me. |
I think you're lying. You got a right thrashing and we both know it.  But if you wanna ignore it or pretend otherwise so you can feel better, go ahead.
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I'm sure that's my fault and not yours, so please don't be wounded by my honesty ... the world is as it is, and one of the things it is ... is just that pastis is only iteresting to The Bobster for just a little while.
Smiles, anyway ... I bear you no ill will. Chow down on whatever you want, just don't ask me or anyone I know to follow the choices YOU
make ... boil it down, that's all I been sayin' ... |
Never once asked you to do anything. You are just incapable of recognizing something is immoral. That was my point all along. |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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I've long been an advocate of eating dog.
I'd likely avoid a continuing relationship with someone squeamish about it. |
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Xerxes
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Location: Down a certain (rabbit) hole, apparently
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I do not agree with your dating dogs, but I will eat dog even to defend your right to date so. 
Who we date and what we eat and what we eat while dating are none of your culinary business. You can't legislate morality, but if it aint against the law, you can do it. You can do it in Korea, at least, date dogs and eat...girls.
Yer being against something legally sanctioned aint gonna make it not so, so just relax, take and deep breath, and move slowly, very very slowly. *fade in track to asexual monks singing in echoy hall*
I'm against George Bush and I still associate myself with the country of his presidium.
(I'm just being silly here so don't liken my logic to anything logical and academic. Just trying to chill the neighborhood: can't we just eat along?) |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I am sorry, but I would never want to date a girl who eats cats, for example, and I don't care how pretty or funny she is.... I really like cats. I feel the same about eating dogs or someone who consumes parts of endangered tigers. I understand your point that people should be open-minded after all people who are borderline vegetarians or vegetarians will date meat eaters in many cases. If you want to date someone who eats dog, it's up to you. It is a different culture. I know that some Koreans are against eating dog, too. I have had Korean friends who didn't like the idea of eating dog, so let's not stereotype too much. I suppose I could casual date a Korean girl who eats dog, but I wouldn't want to be really serious about her. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| pastis wrote: |
| I don't believe in any kind of god, and not once did I ever tell you what to do. I just explained to you what is immoral, that's all. |
Might be food for another thread, but I can't for the life of me understand how a guy can go on and on about "This is immoral" and "That is immoral," and then come back and say he doesn't beleive in God?
Isn't a belief in God a prerequisite for being able to say to other people what is "moral" and what is not?
You seem so very excited about this. I'm sorry I got you so upset.
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| That's because in all likelihood you are, at bottom, a callous, uncritical person. |
I don't recall having criticized you ... as for the other :
When I was a boy I had a puppy who grew to be my very good friend. I named her Sneakers (because her feet were white). She was a mongel, German Shepard and St Bernard parents, but she was the "runt" of the litter so when she grew up she was not as large as the average for either breed. She had a small bump on the back of her head, and adults told me that dogs with that particular bone structure were a little smarter than those who lacked it.
Dunno if she was a genius, but she sure could love. Loyalty? Fahgeddabahdit. Anything I could get her to understand, she'd do it, right here and right now.
She developed of a canine form of epilepsy, which means I had to wake up in the middle of the night when she was having a seizure so I could put a belt or some other object in her mouth to keep her from chewing off her tongue. Mom tried to convince me to put her down, take her to the vet and hold her paw while she got the injection from the vet. I wasn't strong enough for that. I was a young boy, and my heart had not grown enough yet, and I had not seen enough of what there is in the world.
I had an opportuntiy to go to S America as an exchange student. When I came back, I found that my family had done the thing I was not strong enough to do. I reget it. I should have been there and held her paw.
It's a true story, pastis. I really do love dogs. I love every living creature, especially the ones I get to know personally.
But this true story has NOTHING to do or say about whether Koreans should eat what they choose, or whether or not you ought to declare it as "immoral."
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| You got a right thrashing and we both know it. |
Sounds like you're making all about who has the larger testes and not sharing information and opinions - that's why I was bored, you know. You wanted to show us how big your rocks are are, and I was just trying to say, "Hey, here's another way to look at it ..."
Can you understand why I had better things to do than look at this thread for the past week or so? |
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Nicco61
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hell I married a girl that eats and continues to eat dogs.
Meats meat. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| pastis wrote: |
| I don't believe in any kind of god, and not once did I ever tell you what to do. I just explained to you what is immoral, that's all. |
Might be food for another thread, but I can't for the life of me understand how a guy can go on and on about "This is immoral" and "That is immoral," and then come back and say he doesn't beleive in God?
Isn't a belief in God a prerequisite for being able to say to other people what is "moral" and what is not? |
Of course it's not. Don't make me laugh. Do you ever think before posting?
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| You seem so very excited about this. I'm sorry I got you so upset. |
Not upset at all. Was just pointing out what a complete nunce you are.
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When I was a boy I had a puppy who grew to be my very good friend. I named her Sneakers (because her feet were white). She was a mongel, German Shepard and St Bernard parents, but she was the "runt" of the litter so when she grew up she was not as large as the average for either breed. She had a small bump on the back of her head, and adults told me that dogs with that particular bone structure were a little smarter than those who lacked it.
Dunno if she was a genius, but she sure could love. Loyalty? Fahgeddabahdit. Anything I could get her to understand, she'd do it, right here and right now.
She developed of a canine form of epilepsy, which means I had to wake up in the middle of the night when she was having a seizure so I could put a belt or some other object in her mouth to keep her from chewing off her tongue. Mom tried to convince me to put her down, take her to the vet and hold her paw while she got the injection from the vet. I wasn't strong enough for that. I was a young boy, and my heart had not grown enough yet, and I had not seen enough of what there is in the world.
I had an opportuntiy to go to S America as an exchange student. When I came back, I found that my family had done the thing I was not strong enough to do. I reget it. I should have been there and held her paw. |
If you think I give a rat's ass about your dog "Sneakers", you are gravely mistaken . Really man, tongue-in-cheek or not, I don't think you realise how utterly foolish you have made yourself look. Just keep your anectdotal BS to yourself. We were talking about the torture and killing of dogs for meat, not about your silly dog's epilepsy.
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| It's a true story, pastis. I really do love dogs. I love every living creature, especially the ones I get to know personally. |
Liar. You have zero credibility. You've been debunked on several unrelated threads recently too. You are a total hypocrite. There is no longer any reason to take anything you say seriously.
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| But this true story has NOTHING to do or say about whether Koreans should eat what they choose, or whether or not you ought to declare it as "immoral." |
You're right it doesn't. Because it was a stupid, witless, irrelevant story that changes nothing in the original argument. The fact remains that Koreans torturing and killing dogs is immoral, as per my previous explanations.
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| You got a right thrashing and we both know it. |
Sounds like you're making all about who has the larger testes and not sharing information and opinions - that's why I was bored, you know. You wanted to show us how big your rocks are are, and I was just trying to say, "Hey, here's another way to look at it ..." |
You were just spouting a load of BS, which I called you on each time. No respect for you, "the Bobster".
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| Can you understand why I had better things to do than look at this thread for the past week or so? |
Obviously you didn't, or you wouldn't have revived it after a whole week. Loser. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Morality is a concept that comes from religious convictions. If you have none, you have no rational abililty to use thatparticular word.
I've been sincere. You've been insulting. Ridiculous for you to say the topic does not excite you on soe emotional level. Since you can't even be honest enough to admit it, what use is any kind if discussion that involves you?
Hold your head up and look us all in the face and say you want to herar other opinions and are will;ing to change your mind. You can't.
That's why we are done here. That's why it was always a waste of time. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Morality is a concept that comes from religious convictions. If you have none, you have no rational abililty to use thatparticular word. |
No. It. F-king. Isn't. Where the hell do you come up with this *beep*?? As with everything else, you are completely and utterly wrong on this, and it's so obvious that I'm not going to bother explaining. Ask anybody. Hell, look it up on wikipedia or google it (see: "secular ethics") if you want.
| Quote: |
| I've been sincere. You've been insulting. Ridiculous for you to say the topic does not excite you on soe emotional level. Since you can't even be honest enough to admit it, what use is any kind if discussion that involves you? |
You haven't been sincere, you've been a jackass. I debunked everything you said, you just can't or won't admit it. Oh well.
| Quote: |
| Hold your head up and look us all in the face and say you want to herar other opinions and are will;ing to change your mind. You can't. |
I am actually kinda satisfied with the way I've destroyed you in this debate, point for point, every time. It was kinda fun (but now it's getting old)...
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| That's why we are done here. That's why it was always a waste of time. |
We've been done for ages, you've just been babbling your bullsh1t since the start, and then you decided to resurrect the thread a whole week later, presumably so you could beaten down some more. You must be a masochist, or else a complete moron. |
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