Korean Job Discussion Forums

[the foystein]

Thanks for the clarification. If it is a criminal matter what is the penalty? It can't just be money.

[Ianinilsan]

Everyone needs to understand the importance of putting our POSITIVE opinions in front of the Korean public. They need to hear from good teachers who are making a difference. Even if you don't want to say anything about this case, try to write up something that could help present teachers in a positive light. I understand that many will choose to ignore us, but we've gotta try this while there is an editor at the Korea Herald who will at least listen to our concerns and present our issues.


Please mail to [email protected] and mark "for publication" or "letter to the editor"

[wylies99]

Good points.

[moosehead]

something a lot of folks have missed - virtually every foreign teacher who is in korea (legally of course) is also a taxpayer - and by that virtue alone we have to learn to demand accountability by the govt for our interests, not just those of the hakwon owners; this is also important to keep in mind when one needs an interpretor for legal matters.

further, just looked at zenkimchi's blog and seems maybe this matter is more or less settled?

at any rate, his blog is a ".com" and clearly in english, is not on a korean web-blog so am not sure how, if at all, korean libel laws can even touch him, would have been interesting if a legal expert (i'm not) had brought this up

the eff - electronic freedom foundation - is a huge proponent of free speech on the internet - see eff.org - and probably would be very interested in hearing about this if someone wants to contact them who is more familiar with the situation.

that is, if he'd published his blog in korean, on a korean site (i.e. naver) at least it'd be like the evil hakwon could claim jurisdiction but how can the court claim any jurisdiction at all on a ".com" english website?

am surprised esl cafe hasn't been slammed when you think about it.

moosehead

[mack4289]

It's not over and even if it was, there's still good reason to push this story:

http://www.zenkimchi.com/adventures/?p=165

"I seem to have run afoul of Korea�s libel laws, and they�re actually investigating me for criminal libel.

Criminal libel.

Now, criminal libel still exists in the world. It still exists in the U.S. Yet it is rarely enforced anymore. Worldwide it is becoming passe because it can (and is) abused by people in power to shut up dissenting voices. In Mexico they recently decriminalized libel. And it is becoming a pariah for modern democracies to actually have criminal libel on the books.

Nonetheless, unscrupulous crooks still use criminal libel in South Korea to stifle anyone from exposing their crimes to the public, even if the crimes are on the public record.

I have been getting some good advice from some pretty prominent experts in the field, and they are assuring me that Korea is going the way of the rest of the world. It just needs some court cases to establish more judicial precedents against criminal libel.

This case may become one of them."

More important contacts:
Joe's Congressional Rep: http://bonner.house.gov/HoR/AL01/Contact+Jo/Email+Jo/Contact+Me.htm?zip5=36533. You have to fudge an Alabama address to send something to him.

Joe's Senators: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm?State=AL

Joe's Governor: http://www.governor.state.al.us/contact/contact_form.aspx.

[wylies99]

Agreed. This is total BS done to intimidate all teachers.

[mack4289]

More important contacts:

1. Korea Migrant Workers Human Rights
email: [email protected]

2. Seoul Migrants Workers Center
email: [email protected]

3. Amnesty International Korea
email: [email protected]

[wylies99]

Any more ideas?

[Tokki1]

Watch what you say online, especially in a personal blog. Don't give your blog details to your...um director (I mean seriously how did she find out anyway).

The internet is public domain. True Dave's or other public forums are more anonymous and safe, but I'd still never mention names or schools on here.

Remember what happened with Englishspectrum.com? Korea (especially the Korean media) seems to be transfixed on the net now as a means of fueling their racism and bad attitudes towards ESL teachers.

Which is not good. But it does has its advantages. Drives salaries up.

I guess the lesson here is not to fight your hagwon director. Throw in the towel first if need be. There's no way you're going to win if they decide to play dirty (which they will do, guaranteed, if you play hard ball). You will never win as a foreigner; it's genetically-predetermined that you will lose. The judge will be bribed. Who knows maybe the hagwon owner's family is in law. In any case they'll have more money and resources to throw at the problem. Definitely do not hedge your bet on the Korean legal system. The key to the Korean legal system is that it's Korean, and if you aren't Korean then it's gonna take you down!

Has anyone ever heard of a case where someone has gone up against their hagwon and actually won? I haven't.

Zenkimchi is really getting raped here, but I think he'll come out the other end relatively unscathed. I don't think the 'criminal investigation' will amount to much, but who knows!!! I've heard of similar stories but have never heard of anyone furious enough to take it this far (his won jang nim is 'michin'). I love the cellphone theft accusation; that takes the cake.

Loose lips sink ships. Repent!

It would be really cool if all hagwon teachers could organize a day of protest (a nationwide walkout) in support of Zenkimchi. Hit 'em where it hurts (in the pocketbooks).

[mack4289]

If you think hagwan teachers never win, ask Ian about that. He could tell you different.

Joe had that blog going long before the legal case showed up. And why throw in the towel first? Joe could stand to gain 8 million won here. Throwing in the towel will only encourage other hagwan directors to screw their teachers.

If every hagwan teacher who was getting screwed or was at a school where they were screwing a teacher walked out, that would be something. But it wouldn't be right for me to walk out on my employer, who treats me very well.

The only other idea I came up with was to contact Joe's local newspapers in the US (http://www.al.com/contactus/.) I've already done it and gotten no response so far.

[Tokki1]

Yeah that's what I meant. If all hagwon teachers walked out (not gonna happen but would be quite the scene--would probably even make int'l news).

I'm not suggesting people simply throw their hands in the air when they run into trouble and give up. I'm suggesting that cutting one's losses in Korea is often better than the alternative: going up against the corrupt Korean legal system and a disgruntled director.

I don't mean to sound defeatist or negative or pessimistic. I'm just being realistic.

It's ridiculous to advise hagwon teachers to fight their directors in court. How absurd.

Joe stands to gain 8 million won. But look at what he could lose. An xbox an hour for a year or more, fines, bribes, injustice. LOL... Is it worth it?

[mack4289]

[Tokki1]

I agree completely. But I can't advise someone to be a martyr.

I think eventually things will change in Korea. It might even become on par with Japan or Taiwan some day in terms of cram school treatment of its foreign staff.

[mack4289]

Ok so should this be the advice? "If you want to maybe get everything you were owed, maybe get some satisfaction and maybe help out people with this kind of thing in the future, then fight the hagwan to the bitter end. If you just want it to be over and done with quickly, then don't bother."

[Tokki1]

Yep, pretty much. But I'd insert this: