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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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 Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: the west learned from the east |
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| komerican wrote: |
as I've pointed out in my previous post on this topic, which is a popular one on esl sites, go figure, is that necessity is the mother of invention.
the west benefitted from various factors such as the break up of the Roman empire, a lucky happenstance of history, which allowed for the competitive feudalism that led to early capitalism.
Eastern governments were much more successful in maintaining their huge centralized bureaucracies which dampens inventiveness.
The west also, for centuries during their middle ages, absorbed much of the creativity and inventiveness of the Fertile Crescent and East Asia. A lot of this was reverse engineered and newly labelled as western inventions, go figure.
So the creative spark that created the modern world we live in today was created outside of europe, from the agricuture products to paper, to guns, to the crank shaft, to the domestication of plants and animals, all were imported from outside of europe.
Korea was for much of its history an amazingly stable bureaucratic state, much more stable than chine. If you look at the length of the dynasties you can see that korean dynasties lasted much longer than chinese dynasties. This "success" in stability while good for culture dampens creativity.
korea was by no mean alone in this. China and japan and other countries had strong central governments. In japan, for example, after the portuguese introduced guns to the japanese, japan was the leading producer of quality guns in the world. but after unification of the various warring factions the central bureaucracy decided that guns threated their power and also threatened the existence of the samurai class. so a country that had produced the best guns in world went to outlawing guns completely. |
A lot of what you said is really just your own opinion. I would say about 95% of it is with a few facts and no supportive evidence. If you want to write a thesis or disertation to explain why Korea has not been inventive over the centuries, at least try and do some original research on the topic before you go blabbing on and on like this. I still don't see how Korea's "stability" was a factor. You compare Korea with China, which has invented remarkable things that the modern world still marvels about to this day. You think all of that happened because China was unstable? I don't buy it at all. That's nonsense. Now I'm no China supporter. That's for sure. However, I can't help but be a little impressed with all the contributions they have made to the world (both good and bad). I think China has a lot to be proud of for their contributions throughout history. Don't belittle that by giving rise to their comparible "instablity" with Korea. Korea is just a pin *beep* compared with the size of China. It's much easier to keep your eye on two people than to try and keep your eye on a million individuals. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: the west learned from the east |
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| endo wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
The west also, for centuries during their middle ages, absorbed much of the creativity and inventiveness of the Fertile Crescent and East Asia. A lot of this was reverse engineered and newly labelled as western inventions, go figure.
So the creative spark that created the modern world we live in today was created outside of europe, from the agricuture products to paper, to guns, to the crank shaft, to the domestication of plants and animals, all were imported from outside of europe. |
Most of the grains (domesticated plants) and livestock (domesticated animals) originated in the fertile crescent. Thus those areas have a much longer history and head start in developing these technologies.
But your post appears to negate the hegemony that western technology holds over this globe with the notion that all of this success can be traced back (however miniscule) to areas outsode of Europe.
Perhaps the seed and even the early growth was planted elsewhere, but you can't deny the incredible success that the West has had.
Just go out on the street in Seoul and look around you. From the cars, to the appartments, to the clothing, to the cell phones, to the hair styles, to the city planning, to the subways, to the buses, ect.....
....these all originate in the West.
The premier hospotials and universities in Korea all have westerners behind their establishment.
Even South Korean coorperations like Samsung and Hyundai could not have started up with out a western buisness model and more importantly western money. |
I agree that the west, while inheriting the inventions that made modernity possible, were able to run with it and then dominate inventiveness for the last 400 years. my point was only that the creative spark that led to modernity itself was not only via the western mind but a collective undertaking of the peoples in the euroasian continent. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
Honestly, I could care less if Koreans have invented anything or not. However if I see something that I think is historically inaccurate or maybe is in dispute I will post on it. It's not because I hate Korea as some trolls have said.
I think Koreans are innovative and have a talent for improving things. Nothing wrong with that. That takes a lot of skill in itself.
Maybe some extreme hyper nationalists in Korea might get pissed off but the average Korean doesn't care either.
I like how they adapted mag lev technology to make their slide phones even smaller. Kudos to the Korean engineers for that.  |
again, the non-european could say the same thing about the west. keep in mind that 400 years ago it was asia that had achieved the highest standards of living and inventiveness and it was the west that copied the east. You folks are the ones that have a "a talent for improving things. Nothing wrong with that. That takes a lot of skill in itself."
btw, it would be nice if we could selectively quote more than one post at a time. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: the west learned from the east |
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| Vicissitude wrote: |
| as I've pointed of what you said is really just your own opinion. I would say about 95% of it is with a few facts and no supportive evidence. If you want to write a thesis or disertation to explain why Korea has not been inventive over the centuries, at least try and do some original research on the topic before you go blabbing on and on like this. |
it's interesting how you ask me to provide "supportive evidence" and yet you don't seem to feel it's necessary to provide your own. And yet you would be the one deriding koreans for having "unfounded" beliefs. Where are your sources? Some of the sources I've used are "Lost Discoveries" by D!ck Teresi and "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond. BTW, both guns and steel were invented outside of europe, as were gunpowder and bullets.
| Quote: |
| I still don't see how Korea's "stability" was a factor. You compare Korea with China, which has invented remarkable things that the modern world still marvels about to this day. You think all of that happened because China was unstable? I don't buy it at all. That's nonsense. Now I'm no China supporter. That's for sure. However, I can't help but be a little impressed with all the contributions they have made to the world (both good and bad). I think China has a lot to be proud of for their contributions throughout history. Don't belittle that by giving rise to their comparible "instablity" with Korea.Korea is just a pin *beep* compared with the size of China. It's much easier to keep your eye on two people than to try and keep your eye on a million individuals. |
never said that was the only factor. Obviously the fact that china was one unified economic market contributed to it's inventiveness in the same way that america's huge unified market lets it command the resources to lead in many areas today. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: the west learned from the east |
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| komerican wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| as I've pointed of what you said is really just your own opinion. I would say about 95% of it is with a few facts and no supportive evidence. If you want to write a thesis or disertation to explain why Korea has not been inventive over the centuries, at least try and do some original research on the topic before you go blabbing on and on like this. |
it's interesting how you ask me to provide "supportive evidence" and yet you don't seem to feel it's necessary to provide your own. And yet you would be the one deriding koreans for having "unfounded" beliefs. Where are your sources? Some of the sources I've used are "Lost Discoveries" by D!ck Teresi and "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond. BTW, both guns and steel were invented outside of europe, as were gunpowder and bullets. |
First of all, you are misquoting me all over the place here.
Second of all, I'm not trying to tell long drawn out stories about why Korea has or has not been inventive in world history. Therefore, I see no need to ramble on as self proclaimed expert as you have done. Scroll up and you'll see that I mearly used sources to point out the facts. You are not pointing out any fact, but rather your opinions based on a few books you read. You don't know enough to make these kinds of statements you are making unless you've done original research. Do you have any idea what original research means? It doesn't mean reading someone's book about their opinions. Anyway, I at least used references for any facts that's I've stated here on this thread. I didn't try and explain why Korea has not invented much of anything in world history. I'm not an expert scholar on that subject. Judging by your writing, you are not an expert on the subject either. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: the west learned from the east |
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| Vicissitude wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| as I've pointed of what you said is really just your own opinion. I would say about 95% of it is with a few facts and no supportive evidence. If you want to write a thesis or disertation to explain why Korea has not been inventive over the centuries, at least try and do some original research on the topic before you go blabbing on and on like this. |
it's interesting how you ask me to provide "supportive evidence" and yet you don't seem to feel it's necessary to provide your own. And yet you would be the one deriding koreans for having "unfounded" beliefs. Where are your sources? Some of the sources I've used are "Lost Discoveries" by D!ck Teresi and "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond. BTW, both guns and steel were invented outside of europe, as were gunpowder and bullets. |
First of all, you are misquoting me all over the place here.
Second of all, I'm not trying to tell long drawn out stories about why Korea has or has not been inventive in world history. Therefore, I see no need to ramble on as self proclaimed expert as you have done. Scroll up and you'll see that I mearly used sources to point out the facts. You are not pointing out any fact, but rather your opinions based on a few books you read. You don't know enough to make these kinds of statements you are making unless you've done original research. Do you have any idea what original research means? It doesn't mean reading someone's book about their opinions. Anyway, I at least used references for any facts that's I've stated here on this thread. I didn't try and explain why Korea has not invented much of anything in world history. I'm not an expert scholar on that subject. Judging by your writing, you are not an expert on the subject either. |
requiring original research to make a point on a message board is a bit absurd. Of course merely pointing to a book as a resource doesn't end any controversy, books can be wrong. I'm merely giving my opinion which is backed by some of the things I've read on this topic. If you don't accept it fine. For those that are interested in this topic,perhaps a book like "Lost discoveries" might shed some light on how inventions outside of europe were responsible for the modern age we live in today.
also, keep in mind though that I haven't seen you back up your statements with "original research" and I doubt you'll do so in the future.
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| Koreans, if they aren't eating dogs, they are cloning them |
Perhaps you ought to start with yourself and back this up with "original research", lol. |
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Lonewolf
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: The aren't too bad for they did invent HDTV |
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| They invented Kimci, HDTV and.....Hummm The ability to copy everyone else's work they are the masters of Plagiarism. And have the highest accident and suicide rate in the world today. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
Well, why do people get in such a knot, saying crap like 'What have you invented?' and 'People invent things, not countries'?
I'll tell you why - it's because of the way Koreans act about such things -
Jesus, I had no idea what my country contributed to the world until I came to Korea and felt bad about having almost nothing to brag about my country next to these chest-pounding fellas that went on and on about how great Korea is, that's why. First thing I did after crying in the toilets after said convos? Run back home and do mad google searches so I could show these rice lovers what's what is what I did.
I suggest you lads being outshined by the Korean water clock to do the same - never let these Asian upstarts try and get the best of us! |
Fine example of racist rant.
cbc |
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Nicco61
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: Re: The aren't too bad for they did invent HDTV |
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| Lonewolf wrote: |
| They invented Kimci, HDTV and.....Hummm The ability to copy everyone else's work they are the masters of Plagiarism. And have the highest accident and suicide rate in the world today. |
Not even close
Suicide rates per 100 000 by country, year and sex (Table)
Most recent year available: December 2005
Country Year Males Females
UNITED KINGDOM 02 10.8 3.1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 01 17.6 4.1
AUSTRALIA 01 20.1 5.3
CANADA 01 18.7 5.2
CHINA (Selected rural & urban areas) 99 13.0 14.8
CHINA (Hong Kong SAR) 02 20.7 10.2
JAPAN 02 35.2 12.8
REPUBLIC OF KOREA 02 24.7 11.2
SINGAPORE 02 11.4 7.6
And the winner is....
LITHUANIA 03 74.3 13.9
Also take a look at ths:
http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat2007_10highlights.pdf
Sorry can't get the columns correct. |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Korea has the highest suicide rate for OECD countries to be precise.
Korea Has World's Highest Suicide Rate
A study has found that Korea's suicide rate is the highest among the 30 member countries of the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development). According to an OECD report on Sunday, Korea's suicide rate stands at 24.7 cases per 100,000 people, the highest in the group. Hungary followed with 22.6, then Japan with 20.3 and Belgium with 18.4. The U.S. recorded 10.2 suicides per 100,000, less than half Korea's figure. Korea's suicide rate also grew fastest during the last 25 years, an annual average of 5.01 percent since 1982. During the same period, other countries have reported growth in their suicide rates of around 2 percent on average, while Australia, Norway and Greece have reduced their rates.
In 1982, Korea's suicide rate stood at 6.8 cases per 100,000, one of the lowest in the world, along with Mexico at 2.3, Greece at 3.3 and Spain at 4.8.
Experts blame the increase on the culture of fierce competition in Korean society. "Research shows that 80 percent of people who kill themselves suffer from psychiatric problems like depression. The biggest factor is stress," said Yoon Se-chang, a professor of neuropsychiatry at Samsung Medical Center. "High competition since elementary school explains the high suicide rate in Korea."
The suicide rate among young people is especially high in Korea. According to statistics for 2005 from the National Statistics Office, the leading cause of death for people in their 20s and 30s was suicide. For people in their 20s, the rate is 17.7 suicides per 100,000, and for the people in their 30s it's 21.8.
"The increasing suicide rate is related to the rapid socioeconomic decline such as the increasing rates of unemployment and divorce since the financial crisis of 1997," said Lee Hong-shik, the president of the Korean Association for Suicide Prevention. "In the past, families served to ease such shocks. But these days, without the family protection, people feel more despair and more impulse to kill themselves."
Experts from home and abroad who attended a symposium on suicide at the World Psychiatric Association's 2007 Regional Meeting in Seoul said suicide is rapidly increasing among industrialized Asian countries like Korea. To solve the problem, the experts say communities should set up systems to identify the problem at the earliest possible stage.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200704/200704230029.html |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: Re: the west learned from the east |
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| komerican wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| Vicissitude wrote: |
| as I've pointed of what you said is really just your own opinion. I would say about 95% of it is with a few facts and no supportive evidence. If you want to write a thesis or disertation to explain why Korea has not been inventive over the centuries, at least try and do some original research on the topic before you go blabbing on and on like this. |
it's interesting how you ask me to provide "supportive evidence" and yet you don't seem to feel it's necessary to provide your own. And yet you would be the one deriding koreans for having "unfounded" beliefs. Where are your sources? Some of the sources I've used are "Lost Discoveries" by D!ck Teresi and "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond. BTW, both guns and steel were invented outside of europe, as were gunpowder and bullets. |
First of all, you are misquoting me all over the place here.
Second of all, I'm not trying to tell long drawn out stories about why Korea has or has not been inventive in world history. Therefore, I see no need to ramble on as self proclaimed expert as you have done. Scroll up and you'll see that I mearly used sources to point out the facts. You are not pointing out any fact, but rather your opinions based on a few books you read. You don't know enough to make these kinds of statements you are making unless you've done original research. Do you have any idea what original research means? It doesn't mean reading someone's book about their opinions. Anyway, I at least used references for any facts that's I've stated here on this thread. I didn't try and explain why Korea has not invented much of anything in world history. I'm not an expert scholar on that subject. Judging by your writing, you are not an expert on the subject either. |
requiring original research to make a point on a message board is a bit absurd. Of course merely pointing to a book as a resource doesn't end any controversy, books can be wrong. I'm merely giving my opinion which is backed by some of the things I've read on this topic. If you don't accept it fine. For those that are interested in this topic,perhaps a book like "Lost discoveries" might shed some light on how inventions outside of europe were responsible for the modern age we live in today.
also, keep in mind though that I haven't seen you back up your statements with "original research" and I doubt you'll do so in the future.
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| Koreans, if they aren't eating dogs, they are cloning them |
Perhaps you ought to start with yourself and back this up with "original research", lol. |
You want original research to prove two related topics that are already common knowledge throughout the world. Now that is really absurd. Well, If you insist:
1.) I saw dogs being butchered in front of other dogs and the meat sold for human consumption on the streets at the Yusong market. I've also seen a few "dog farms" for the oh so famous boshintang restaurants that are all over Korea. That is my original research.
2.) I've counted the number of articles on the internet related to the cloning of snuppy. It comes up to 2567. Not really, but who needs to prove that when it's common knowledge. 
Komerican, you don't know what original research is or why it is used. Take a grad. school class in Research Methods and Stats. Buddy, I've done plenty of my own original research. It's really not that difficult. I've taken enough research courses in graduate school to learn how to not talk or write like a moron as you have done. I guess you haven't been to a good grad. school in the USA or you wouldn't be getting this defensive with me. BTW, reading someone's book about their opinions is not considered original research. You started by stating a large number of things that are not facts, yet you spoke as if they were. Then you draw up your own conclusions as if they should not be debated. You gave no URL links. You have no quotes. You simply say you read a few books and therefore you are extremely knowledgeable now so your opinions should be taken as gospel. How do you manage to walk around with such a big head on your little shoulders? It must me a lot of work to carry that much weight around.
Last edited by Vicissitude on Wed May 16, 2007 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| It would be nice to be able to insert a mid-thread poll to determine by voting who is the "winner". |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Re: the west learned from the east |
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| komerican wrote: |
| modernity itself was not only via the western mind but a collective undertaking of the peoples in the euroasian continent. |
"the western mind!?" WTF is that! Oh look, a Komerican just invented, "the western mind!" 
OMG, I sure feel sorry for this kid's poor college professor. That is if he had one. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: The aren't too bad for they did invent HDTV |
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| Lonewolf wrote: |
| They invented Kimci, HDTV and.....Hummm . |
Korea did not invent Kimchi. The main ingredient is Chinese Cabbage. It originated in China. The chili peppers were introduced to Korea via western traders in the 17th century. Koreans just added the chili peppers and a few other western ingredients.
see: http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=86489&highlight=kimchi
Korea had nothing to do with the invention of modern HDTV as we know it today. Furthermore, no single Korean or group of Koreans can take this type of credit. It's very much American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV
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| HDTV technology was first introduced in the US during the 1990s by a group of electronics companies called the Digital HDTV Grand Alliance. |
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| Consortium created in 1993 at the behest of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to develop the American HDTV specification, with the aim of pooling the best work from different companies. The Grand Alliance (GA) consisted of AT&T, General Instrument Corporation, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Philips Consumer Electronics, David Sarnoff Research Center, Thomson Consumer Electronics, and Zenith Electronics Corporation |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Alliance_%28HDTV%29 |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Think you know what the first MP3 player was? Even we had bought into the urban legend that it was Diamond Multimedia's Rio PMP300, but Eliot Van Buskirk does a little debunking over at CNET, pointing out that the very first one to come out was actually Saehan's MPMan, a 32MB (yeah, megabyte) player which was sold in the US as the Eiger Labs MPMan F10/F20 a few months before the first Rio arrived. So why weren't they sued by the RIAA just like Diamond was? Because South Korea-based Saehan wasn't as easy to take to court as Diamond, which was headquartered in California. Not that not being sued seemed to make much of a difference for Saehan�the company has all but disappeared in the six and a half years since they first introduced the MPMan.
http://www.engadget.com/2005/01/25/the-very-first-mp3-player |
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The Diamond Rio's false status as the first MP3 player is practically cemented in technology lore, so before it's too late, I want to set the record straight. The world's first mass-produced hardware MP3 player was Saehan's MPMan, sold in Asia starting in the late spring of 1998. It was released in the United States as the Eiger Labs MPMan F10/F20 (two variants of the same device) in the summer of 1998, a few months before the Rio.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6450_7-5622055-1.html |
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MPMan was the first portable MP3 player that was developed in 1997 by saehan a Korean Company (www.mpman.com). From the first MP3 player MPMan until today many companies have entered the market of MP3 players.
http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/5026.php |
MP3 PLAYER. |
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