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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
I would rather believe that the evil that we see around us is based upon a dark being influencing our actions rather than the luck of the draw. |
I prefer evidence to back my beliefs.
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| If it was just a mental illness, then he really can't be held accountable for his actions. He was just the victim of a mental sickness. Right? |
Let's look at what I said again:
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| So seems like a good guess Cho's killing was largely caused by a mental illness and not a demon. |
I don't necessarily eliminate he had a free, moral choices to make. Some people are so schizophrenic we look like space cannibals about to eat them. Put a gun in their hand, they might shoot the space cannibals.
When a person steals, does he steal because he's possessed by a demon? Crime is strongly associated with poverty. Theft rarely seems a good option to people with a job. People brought low by poverty and reduced circumstances sometimes view theft as an option. What motivates choice is not reducible to a couple pat factors and I would never claim such. They still have a moral choice in many circumstances.
Gosh, maybe it was a demon that made Cho kill. Or maybe mental illness stripped away his ability to perceive right and wrong. Or maybe he was a contributing factor among three other factors. But sorry when some dumb ass Christian claiming the world is 6,000 years old claims it was a demon, I gotta spew on my keyboard. It's just too damn funny. Thanks for all the dark age thinking. Glad you're no longer in front of children.
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| It's the same mentality that is happening in the states right now, where child sex offenders are getting off without any penalties because it really isn't their fault. They are just addicted to their behavior. |
But wait, you want to blame the behavior as the actions of a demon. Uh huh. Uh huh.
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| Whereas, if he is influenced by demons, then he must be held accountable for his actions. Everyone has the power to control the rage within. |
Really? What evidence do you have that all demons can be resisted? If one can resist a demon, why can't they resist all the various bad things the demon makes them do? They simply want to?
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| Evolution is the easy way out and you know it. |
How so?
You are not my brother. I want no peace from you. Don't offer it in future. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| I suspect that far more Americans than Koreans believe in demonic possession. This is probably yet another thing that's more of an American influence than Korean. |
They do like shamanism here. Anyone seen one? |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
I prefer evidence to back my beliefs.
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Right. What evidence can you use that we came from nothing? Can you prove how inorganic transitioned to organic? I haven't been following your 60+ page thread on your insightful gatherings of scientific evidence, but I'm sure you still can't explain such simple concepts.
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| I don't necessarily eliminate he had a free, moral choices to make. Some people are so schizophrenic we look like space cannibals about to eat them. Put a gun in their hand, they might shoot the space cannibals. |
So where's the free moral choices? What choices did he make that brought him to that state of mind?
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| When a person steals, does he steal because he's possessed by a demon? Crime is strongly associated with poverty. Theft rarely seems a good option to people with a job. People brought low by poverty and reduced circumstances sometimes view theft as an option. What motivates choice is not reducible to a couple pat factors and I would never claim such. They still have a moral choice in many circumstances. |
Of course not. Most people are not demon possessed, but only influenced by it. The sinful nature in each of us would rather turn to deception than truth and so crime is the result.
Look at places where revival(people accepting Christ into their lives) has broken out and you will see that crime goes down. Look at places that celebrate the absence of God and you will see an increase in crime. Who were some of the greatest influences of evil in our time? Those who believed that there was no God.
Unfortunately, though, the church also has committed some of the most heinous crimes as well. That also can be attributed that many of these movements did not know who God was. But did they kill many millions like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong.
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| Gosh, maybe it was a demon that made Cho kill. Or maybe mental illness stripped away his ability to perceive right and wrong. Or maybe he was a contributing factor among three other factors. But sorry when some dumb ass Christian claiming the world is 6,000 years old claims it was a demon, I gotta spew on my keyboard. It's just too damn funny. Thanks for all the dark age thinking. Glad you're no longer in front of children. |
I said it could be, but there is also room for an old age earth. Both are legit. Also MM2 I will be having ESL summer camps this year.
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| It's the same mentality that is happening in the states right now, where child sex offenders are getting off without any penalties because it really isn't their fault. They are just addicted to their behavior. |
But wait, you want to blame the behavior as the actions of a demon. Uh huh. Uh huh. |
What do you want to blame it on? Bad genetics? Bad luck? So then, when someone does something horrible, how then is it their fault? They were only a product of their enviroment. How does choice influence their actions?
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| Really? What evidence do you have that all demons can be resisted? If one can resist a demon, why can't they resist all the various bad things the demon makes them do? They simply want to? |
Because I have cast them out of people and seen them manifest in front of us. I have also seen demons wreck havoc on houses, people and surroundings.
I also challenge you, which I think I have done in the past. Why don't we go to Africa and you can meet some of the witch doctors that regularly curse our churches and meetings. Lets see them curse you and I would like to see what happens to you. Many people end up dead. So how about it, if demons are fake, lets go mock some witch doctors in Africa and that will be our experiment.
What do you say?
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Evolution is the easy way out and you know it.
How so?
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It allows you to justify the sin that you are in. Without believing in God, then you don't have to believe in a judgment and therefore you are off scott free. Once you die, it's nirvana or some peaceful bliss. A nice little illusionary state of deception.
Whereas if you believe in all powerful, all knowing God, then your actions and thoughts will be judged by Him.
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| You are not my brother. I want no peace from you. Don't offer it in future |
OK, grace to you sista! |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
I prefer evidence to back my beliefs.
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Right. What evidence can you use that we came from nothing? Can you prove how inorganic transitioned to organic? I haven't been following your 60+ page thread on your insightful gatherings of scientific evidence, but I'm sure you still can't explain such simple concepts. |
I was speaking of evidence. Not proof. The evidence that organic molecules are common in the universe. That there are plausible suggested mechanisms for how organic molecules can become self replicating and then simple life.
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| So where's the free moral choices? |
What do you mean?
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| What choices did he make that brought him to that state of mind? |
Who? Cho? I don't know enough about the case.
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| Of course not. Most people are not demon possessed, but only influenced by it. |
And of course you have good scientific evidence of demons?
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| Look at places where revival(people accepting Christ into their lives) has broken out and you will see that crime goes down. |
I thought child abuse was higher in bible belt areas. But that's an amazing claim. Do you have the data to support that claim?
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| What do you want to blame it on? Bad genetics? Bad luck? So then, when someone does something horrible, how then is it their fault? They were only a product of their enviroment. How does choice influence their actions? |
I guess it depends on each case. Unlike you god boys, I don't think life is as simple as a world of gods and demons. Sorry, it just isn't that easy.
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| Because I have cast them out of people and seen them manifest in front of us. I have also seen demons wreck havoc on houses, people and surroundings. |
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes. Not data. Sorry. You're employing thinking from the dark ages. We kinda understand today that people suffer from mental illness. How do you determine someone is demon possessed and not simply mentally ill? What's your measure?
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I also challenge you, which I think I have done in the past. Why don't we go to Africa and you can meet some of the witch doctors that regularly curse our churches and meetings. Lets see them curse you and I would like to see what happens to you. Many people end up dead. So how about it, if demons are fake, lets go mock some witch doctors in Africa and that will be our experiment.
What do you say? |
You're completely divorced from reality. That's what I got to say. You've really taken a huge step into woo woo land. Yes, I'd be happy to mock any witch doctor you choose and let him levy any curse he wants on me.
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| It allows you to justify the sin that you are in. Without believing in God, then you don't have to believe in a judgment and therefore you are off scott free. |
Bzz. Fallacy: false dichotomy. One can believe in evolution and god. Sorry. Not that easy. One can believe in evolution and an ethical system based on what benefits those around you.
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| Whereas if you believe in all powerful, all knowing God, then your actions and thoughts will be judged by Him. |
I'd would rather be judged by my friends and family and act to make them happy than please your little imaginary friend in the sky. Sorry, one can be both ethical and godless.
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| OK, grace to you sista! |
You would like to see me in woman's panties, wouldn't you? Got a bit of the Ted Haggard in you? Do you want to kiss my pretty mouth?
Last edited by mindmetoo on Fri May 18, 2007 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
I also challenge you, which I think I have done in the past. Why don't we go to Africa and you can meet some of the witch doctors that regularly curse our churches and meetings. Lets see them curse you and I would like to see what happens to you. Many people end up dead. So how about it, if demons are fake, lets go mock some witch doctors in Africa and that will be our experiment.
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I've also pointed out on the previous page that African churches that bring this belief to the UK are carrying out acts of child abuse. I would not look for knowledge from a place that believes evil dictators can turn into snakes and that AIDS can be cured with either fresh vegetables, cold showers or infant sex, unless I was looking for how stupid people can be.
There is already a thread on evolution, and none of the pro-darwin camp are claiming to know how life 'began', except that we expect a natural explanation, since we have found no God in any other natural phenomenon.
However this a thread about demonic possession, you claim it is real. Yet nothing you have said has lead us to believe what you are saying is true.
Why are you trying to saddle crime on atheists? The prisons are full of theists not atheists! Please just stop with the idiocy I'm getting a nosebleed.
Oh and happy birthday Bertrand Russell
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| "A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past, or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men," |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| I suspect that far more Americans than Koreans believe in demonic possession. This is probably yet another thing that's more of an American influence than Korean. |
They do like shamanism here. Anyone seen one? |
Except for TV, i've never "seen" one (not that i'm aware).
Anyways, bottom line here is we ALL possess a certain mysterious & seemingly intangible spiritual quality,
essence & nature 
Say this topic reminds me, didn't JESUS travel the countryside, & as legend would have it, various regions beyond " ...casting out demons ..." ???
My, how liberating.
GET BEHIND THEE SATAN!  |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 2:50 am Post subject: |
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I never cease to be amazed how little most leftists actually know of the Roman Catholic rite of exorcism, which is reserved for only the most otherwise inexplicable cases and which is only granted after lengthy review, including the intervention of pyschiatrists and others.
If you don't believe me, read Father Malachi Martin's incredibly lucid, eloquent, and informed bestseller on the subject, The Devil's Hostage.
Demonic possession is difficult to prove, an arduous series of investigations precedes declaration of it and the Vatican only takes up appeals from well positioned clergy in this most serious of matters.
Cho was never institutionalized, either in the U.S. or Korea. He might have been autistic. At the very least he was sociopathic. And he suffered from severe clinical depression which was diagnosed but never alleviated by prescription.
The family was tormented by their son but in typical Asian fashion found it taboo to admit the mental health matter to strangers. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I never cease to be amazed how little most leftists actually know of the Roman Catholic rite of exorcism, which is reserved for only the most otherwise inexplicable cases and which is only granted after lengthy review, including the intervention of pyschiatrists and others. |
Indeed. However it would seem fiveeagles is in the business of diagnosing demon possession and administering treatment.
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| Cho was never institutionalized, either in the U.S. or Korea. |
Depends on your definition of "institutionalized".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho#Psychiatric_evaluation
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Based on this mental health examination and because Cho was suspected of being "an imminent danger to [him]self or others," Cho was detained temporarily at Carilion St. Albans Behavioral Health Center in Christiansburg, Virginia, pending a commitment hearing before the Montgomery County, Virginia district court.[50]
Virginia Special Justice Paul Barnett certified in an order that Cho "[presented] an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness," but instead recommended treatment for Cho as an outpatient. |
But he was only there for a day. Oddly, they found no evidence of demonic possession.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Sun May 20, 2007 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I never cease to be amazed how little most leftists actually know of the Roman Catholic rite of exorcism, which is reserved for only the most otherwise inexplicable cases and which is only granted after lengthy review, including the intervention of pyschiatrists and others. |
You're amazed at this?
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| Demonic possession is difficult to prove, an arduous series of investigations precedes declaration of it and the Vatican only takes up appeals from well positioned clergy in this most serious of matters. |
I would go far as to say it is unprovable.
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| The family was tormented by their son but in typical Asian fashion found it taboo to admit the mental health matter to strangers. |
Easier to believe demons did it. Exorcism is a dangerous part of religious dogma that can prevent people from getting the care they need and has led to deaths. It's abuse of the mentally ill. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Oddly, they found no evidence of demonic possession. |
Yup! Oddly enough. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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ED209:
Just for the record, I don't think for a moment that Cho was possessed. He obviously needed much earlier mental health intervention.
Having said as much, demonic possession can never be entirely ruled out until an individual has been examined over a long period of time by both physicians and spiritual leaders. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: |
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How do these physicians and spiritual leaders rule it in? It sounds to me like these spiritual leaders are preying on instead of praying for.
Has anyone seen 'Exorcism: Driving Out The Devil ' ? I believe you can find it on a torrent site, maybe demonoid
There are many religions that practice exorcism. Those that do claim success, so are demons driven out by any god, could I perform an exorcism by commanding Thor's name? Why don't all the demons scared of Jesus go and live in Thailand and those scared of shamans go and live in America? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| The practice of an exorcism is based upon the assumption that there is a devil or evil spirits of some sort, that occupy the body. This assumption is damn wrong, in addition to being childishly silly, and as such the whole project is nothing more than role-playing. Halloween for wacky adults. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| There are many religions that practice exorcism. Those that do claim success, so are demons driven out by any god, could I perform an exorcism by commanding Thor's name? Why don't all the demons scared of Jesus go and live in Thailand and those scared of shamans go and live in America? |
Yeah all major religions have demonic possession and all claim they can drive out the devils in the name of their god. All claim success. Are all religions correct then? Maybe all the other guys are fooling themselves but Christians are not? If so how do we tell the difference between the fake demons/exorcisms and the true ones? Or maybe like how all cultures used gods to explain elements of nature we know today have naturalistic explanations, it's just a facet of mental illness. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Wiki has nice artical on Exorcism
Sikhs oppose it whilst Jians don't believe in it. There's also a list of exorcism related deaths, quite a few Koreans in there.
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# Kyung-A Ha was beaten to death in 1995 in San Francisco, California by members of the Jesus-Amen Ministries.
# Kyung Jae Chung died in 1996 in Glendale, California from blunt-force trauma inflicted by her husband (a reverend) and members of the Glendale Korean Methodist Church.
# Korean woman Joanna Lee died in early December 2001, during a violent and prolonged exorcism performed in Auckland, New Zealand by Korean church minister Luke Lee. Her decomposing body was prayed over for several days before authorities were notified. During his subsequent trial, Luke Lee claimed that Joanna Lee would rise from the dead in a few days. Lee was imprisoned but has appealed the conviction. |
Regarding the last one there, it doesn't say if she did actually rise again. |
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