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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
Good one. A real zinger.
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I'm still waiting for you to prove that Big Bang is wrong. Been a year plus. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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This is all a slippery slope argument. It's clear immigration law has a financial test. On the face of it, I can't see there being that many professionals and skilled foreign workers who have multiple wives and can pass the financial test.
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I will grant you that it probably wouldn't be a tsunamic onslaught of polygamists flooding through the turnstiles at Pearson International airport. But let's say that in the first few years, just one wealthy guy with five wives, and three kids per wife, moves to Canada. Right there, that's twenty-one people involved in polygamous relationships(in addition to the schismatic Mormons in BC.)
Now, once the guy becomes a Canadian citizen, what's to stop him from going back to his homeland for a holiday, marrying a few more wives there, and then bringing them back to Canada and demanding that Canada recogzine the marriages? And once his sons are old enough to marry, there'd be nothing to stop them from doing the same thing.
So yeah, you're probably correct that legalization wouldn't result in wall-to-wall polygamy overnight, or even ever. But I don't think it's entirely within the realm of fantasy to suggest that the number of polygamous communities could, within the period of a decade or so, expand into the double digits. And personally, I kind of see that as being a major headache on a number of fronts.
And I don't think this is slippery slope reasoning, because the scenario I'm positing would follow directly from the legalization of polygamy. A slippery slope would be more something like "you know, if we legalize polygamy, next we're gonna have to legalize wife-beating, because those polygamists are all a bunch of wife-beaters." |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Now, once the guy becomes a Canadian citizen, what's to stop him from going back to his homeland for a holiday, marrying a few more wives there, and then bringing them back to Canada and demanding that Canada recogzine the marriages? |
When we marry Korean women do they automatically get a pass? Again, I think immigration looks at your ability to support them financially. If we allow polygamy and he has the financial means, so what? If he doesn't, then he can't bring his new brides to Canada.
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| So yeah, you're probably correct that legalization wouldn't result in wall-to-wall polygamy overnight, or even ever. But I don't think it's entirely within the realm of fantasy to suggest that the number of polygamous communities could, within the period of a decade or so, expand into the double digits. And personally, I kind of see that as being a major headache on a number of fronts. |
So a nation of 30 million people, such communities double. What does that mean? Isn't that still a blip? Sure it would be a headache if these citizens can't support themselves. But Canadians are having children all the time they can't support, within marriage and outside of marriage. What can be done? We don't jail people for infidelity anymore. But that would certainly be a deterrent and keep people from having children they can't support. We don't stone women who give it up before marriage, either. In a free country, people are free to be stupid. Whether the state calls 3 women living with one man and them all having children a legal marriage or not a legal marriage, it's going to happen. There's nothing under law to bar that living arrangement.
Since marriage is a legal act laying out property rights, rights of inheritance, next of kin in case of death or incapacity, and financial support should a marriage dissolve, I see no problem with adapting the marriage act to deal with that, like it now deals with gay marriage.
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| And I don't think this is slippery slope reasoning, because the scenario I'm positing would follow directly from the legalization of polygamy. A slippery slope would be more something like "you know, if we legalize polygamy, next we're gonna have to legalize wife-beating, because those polygamists are all a bunch of wife-beaters." |
Your initial claim was if polygamy then so many would come to Canada that traditional marriage may well seem like an alternative lifestyle. To arrive at the end of the slope, we need a chain of things to happen. It's obvious a major roadblock is the financial test. A chain of events with questionable steps is a slippery slope. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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The Ontario Court of Appeal case that "legalized" gay marriages, did so byover-ruling an 1867/68 case outlawing polygamy. The name of the case is Hyde v. Hyde and Woodmansee and involved Mormon Polygamy.
Hyde said one man and won woman is the only proper marriage. The later court said that was no longer valid.
Two of the same sex or one and two or more of the opposite sex should be about the same.
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: yes |
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At what point does Canada have to risk becoming unpopular to the outside world, and say 'enough is enough'.
We have laws for a reason. Not all laws are flexible. If some polygamist wants to marry 1 woman and *beep* others, the law can't really stop him unless the 'wife' has a problem with it and files for divorce. So let him marry 1 woman and *beep* others. But no polygamy. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Thats what we used to say about gays and lesbians but somehow that wasn't enough. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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It's never enough. Next thing, muslims will say they want to legalize honour killings in Canada too.
Sikhs can already carry their 'ceremonial' dagger. What's next? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
It's never enough. Next thing, muslims will say they want to legalize honour killings in Canada too.
Sikhs can already carry their 'ceremonial' dagger. What's next? |
Question:
How many Canadian Sikhs have been known to use this as a weapon? |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:33 am Post subject: yes |
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If even one has done it, it's enough reason to disallow it.
Are immigrants' feelings more important than people's lives?
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
It's never enough. Next thing, muslims will say they want to legalize honour killings in Canada too.
Sikhs can already carry their 'ceremonial' dagger. What's next? |
Question:
How many Canadian Sikhs have been known to use this as a weapon? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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So how many have used it a weapon? Any available stats?
I doubt very many (if ANY).
My impression is they treat it as sacred & not something to be toyed with or abused  |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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I stand by my statement that if even 1 has used it, it needs to be outlawed. I don't give a *beep* what they do in their country. I care what they do in mine.
Just a sec. I will find at least 1 article that shows that it has happened.
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
So how many have used it a weapon? Any available stats?
I doubt very many (if ANY).
My impression is they treat it as sacred & not something to be toyed with or abused |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
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I got this evidence.
There is no evidence that a kirpan has ever been drawn or used as a weapon in any school under the board's jurisdiction.
However:
There have been, in the Metropolitan Toronto area, three reported incidents of violent kirpan use. One involved a plea of guilty to attempted murder after a stabbing with a kirpan. In one street fight, a man was stabbed in the back with a kirpan. In one case, a kirpan was drawn for defensive purposes.
http://www.sikhcoalition.org/LegalCanada5.asp |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| I'm still waiting for you to prove that Big Bang is wrong. Been a year plus. |
The essential problem with Creationism versus Evolution is that neither side can conclusively prove that they are right. Just my opinion. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| And even if you could prove either side of the argument, there would be people on the other side that are so set in their beliefs, that they still wouldn't be convinced. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
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We don't jail people for infidelity anymore. But that would certainly be a deterrent and keep people from having children they can't support. We don't stone women who give it up before marriage, either. In a free country, people are free to be stupid. Whether the state calls 3 women living with one man and them all having children a legal marriage or not a legal marriage, it's going to happen. There's nothing under law to bar that living arrangement.
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Yes, but there is a difference between allowing stupid and/or destructive behavior, and sanctioning that behavior with a legally-binding contract. Consider...
Suppose a black guy decide that whites are the superior race. He subsequently moves in with a white family, and does all their cooking, cleaning, and yardwork for free in exchange for room and board, with the verbal understanding that this arrangement will continue for the rest of his life, and that the white couple can hit him if he fails to perform his duties. I think you and I would both agree that while this relationship is bizarre in the extreme, it's basically something that should be left to the free choice of the individuals involved.
Now consider this scenario...
Before moving into the house, the black guy signs the following contract with the white family...
1. I hereby agree to work for free in exchange for room and board, for the rest of my life.
2. If I fail to perform my duties, my employers shall have the right to administer physical punishment.
3. Any children I may father during the course of my employment shall be home-schooled by my employers.
4. Upon reaching the age of majority, my children will be given the opportunity to sign a contract similar to this one.
5. This conract is legally enforcable by a court of law.
Now, the contents of that contract are not precisely the same as a polygamous marital arrangement. But they are similar in that they are both voulntary contracts, which nonetheless give legal sanction to radically inegalitarian relationships. Furthermore, both arrangements set the stage for continuation of the relationship by future generations.
I am not a lawyer, but I doubt you would find too many courts in Canada willing to recognize the validity of the contract I described, even if both parties entered into it voluntarily. I'd be curious to know if you think the contract should be considered legally binding. |
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