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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| But as it is now, it's not fair to compare Lebron to a Kobe or Jordan. |
What has Kobe every done? He won a title with a future Hall of Famer (Shaq)? Big whatever. Steve Kerr, Tony Kukuc, and Bill Cartwright also won NBA titles while playing with a Hall of Famer. |
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mikowee
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But as it is now, it's not fair to compare Lebron to a Kobe or Jordan. |
What has Kobe every done? He won a title with a future Hall of Famer (Shaq)? Big whatever. Steve Kerr, Tony Kukuc, and Bill Cartwright also won NBA titles while playing with a Hall of Famer. |
Just answer one question then. Who's had the better career up until this point? |
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MANDRL
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But as it is now, it's not fair to compare Lebron to a Kobe or Jordan. |
What has Kobe every done? He won a title with a future Hall of Famer (Shaq)? Big whatever. Steve Kerr, Tony Kukuc, and Bill Cartwright also won NBA titles while playing with a Hall of Famer. |
Correction, Kobe won 3 titles. Also, don't forget that Jordan never won without Pippen, in fact, Jordan never had a winning record without Pippen  . What has Kobe accomplished? Well since this is a question about the individual and not the team, here you go:
Career highlights
* 3-time NBA Champion: 2000, 2001, 2002
* 2-time Scoring Champion: 2006, 2007
* 9-time NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007
* Has started in each of his appearances
* 9 consecutive appearances (No All-Star game in 1999 due to league-wide lock-out)
* 2-time NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2002, 2007
* 9-time All-NBA Selection:
* First Team: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007
* Second Team: 2000, 2001
* Third Team: 1999, 2005
* 7-time All-Defensive Selection:
* First Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007
* Second Team: 2001, 2002
* NBA All-Rookie Second Team: 1997
* NBA All-Star Slam Dunk Champion: 1997
* NBA regular season leader in:
* points: 2003 (2,461), 2006 (2,832, 7th in NBA history), 2007 (2,430)
* points per game: 2006 (35.4, 9th in NBA history), 2007 (31.6)
* field goals attempted: 2006 (2,173), 2007 (1,757)
* field goals made: 2003 (868), 2006 (978), 2007 (813)
* free throws attempted: 2007 (768)
* free throws made: 2006 (696), 2007 (667)
* 2nd most points in a Game: 81 (January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors)
NBA milestones
* Youngest player in NBA history to reach:
* 10,000 points (24 years, 194 days), set March 5, 2003 vs. the Indiana Pacers.
* 14,000 points (26 years, 240 days), set April 20, 2005 vs. the Portland Trail Blazers.
* 15,000 points (27 years, 136 days), set January 6, 2006 vs. the Philadelphia 76ers.
* 16,000 points (27 years, 192 days), set March 3, 2006 vs. the Golden State Warriors.
* 17,000 points (28 years, 86 days), set November 17, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors.
* 18,000 points (28 years, 156 days), set January 26, 2007 vs. the Charlotte Bobcats.[18]
* 19,000 points (28 years, 223 days), set April 3, 2007 vs. the Denver Nuggets.
* Youngest player to start an NBA game (18 years, 158 days), making his first start for the Los Angeles Lakers on January 28, 1997.
* Youngest player to start an NBA All-Star Game (19 years, 175 days), making his debut at the 48th annual All-Star Game at Madison Square Garden on February 8, 1998.
* Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team (1999-2000)[19]
* Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Rookie Team (1996-1997)[19]
* Youngest NBA All-Star Slam Dunk champion (18 years, 175 days), after winning the contest at the 1997 NBA All-Star Weekend.
NBA records
Kobe Bryant holds or shares seven NBA records:
* Most three-point field goals made, one game: 12 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; shared with Donyell Marshall)[20]
* Most three-point field goals made, one half: 8 (March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards; shared with 5 players).[20]
* Most consecutive three-point field goals made, one game: 9 (January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; shared with Latrell Sprewell and Ben Gordon).[21]
* Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 5 players).[22][23]
* Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 16 (3rd quarter, December 20, 2005 vs. Dallas Mavericks; shared with 6 players).[22][23]
* Holds shot-clock era records for:
* Greatest percentage of own team's point total (66.4% of the Lakers' 122 points) (set on January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors).
* Greatest percentage of both teams' combined point total (35.8% of the Lakers' and Raptors' 226 points) (Also set on January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant |
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hogwonguy1979
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:56 am Post subject: |
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I still say Duncan is better than Kobe and LBJ, this year he gets his 4th ring 1 more than Kobe and 4 more than LBJ
plus Duncan has been more valuble to his team as in 10 consec playoff apperences, best team rec in that period and after this year the most rings
lets see what LBJ does, but over 9 years Duncan sure has outdone Kobe |
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sjrm
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But as it is now, it's not fair to compare Lebron to a Kobe or Jordan. |
What has Kobe every done? He won a title with a future Hall of Famer (Shaq)? Big whatever. Steve Kerr, Tony Kukuc, and Bill Cartwright also won NBA titles while playing with a Hall of Famer. |
you could also say that about Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, etc. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Who's had the better career up until this point? |
Who are you refering to? |
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MANDRL
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| hogwonguy1979 wrote: |
I still say Duncan is better than Kobe and LBJ, this year he gets his 4th ring 1 more than Kobe and 4 more than LBJ
plus Duncan has been more valuble to his team as in 10 consec playoff apperences, best team rec in that period and after this year the most rings
lets see what LBJ does, but over 9 years Duncan sure has outdone Kobe |
As a die hard Lakers fan, Duncan is amazing (I won't comment on if he is better than Kobe as my loyalty often blinds me). The guy is unstoppable.
So the question I pose now, is Duncan the best power forward in the history of the game? If so, what about the argument that he is more like a center than a power forward? |
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MANDRL
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Who's had the better career up until this point? |
Who are you refering to? |
I believe he is asking you who has had the better career up until this point between Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. |
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SarcasmKills
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Duncan is NOT better than Kobe.. as much of an a-hole as Kobe is, I have to give him his props...
Duncan is a good center.. which is something that is lacking in today's NBA, so he gets to beat up on tall whiteys and slow footed slugs 90% of the time..
LeBron just needs to do what he's doing consistantly... and if he does win the title this year, he'd be one up on Kobe and Jordan in the "won in without help" category... |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| MANDRL wrote: |
| hogwonguy1979 wrote: |
I still say Duncan is better than Kobe and LBJ, this year he gets his 4th ring 1 more than Kobe and 4 more than LBJ
plus Duncan has been more valuble to his team as in 10 consec playoff apperences, best team rec in that period and after this year the most rings
lets see what LBJ does, but over 9 years Duncan sure has outdone Kobe |
As a die hard Lakers fan, Duncan is amazing (I won't comment on if he is better than Kobe as my loyalty often blinds me). The guy is unstoppable.
So the question I pose now, is Duncan the best power forward in the history of the game? If so, what about the argument that he is more like a center than a power forward? |
I can see the argument that Duncan is the best 4 ever. His results are hard to argue with. He's a quiet player, though, and one who needs complementary teammates to be effective: he doesn't create, which post-80's PFs have generally been expected to do.
Comparing him to Kobe or LBJ can only go so far though. At some point it becomes a battle of ideology. Do you judge a player by his results or by his individual tools? Do you judge him by his teammates and system or by his solo domination? I don't really care.
I'm certain that Duncan is a 4 and not really a center, although again I don't care.
Since right now I'm being all meta, I'll give this:
Best individual player in basketball right now: Kobe Bryant (I'd put LBJ, McGrady, and Wade in a pretty distant 2,3,4)
Best big cog in a dominating machine: Duncan. Nobody else even really comes close.
Dominating individual player who also brings out the best in his teammates: LBJ. McGrady and Dirk do this to some extent too, but they both have serious weaknesses (chronic back injury and slowness/wussiness respectively).
What it comes down to, in a way, is that Kobe isn't a guy who makes players better. That's okay, and championships can be won that way. Remember the kind of neuroses Jordan used to slap on role players like Caffey, Cartright, et al? Kobe's a killer like MJ, although even less likeable despite his skillset (which I believe to exceed even that of the great 23).
On the other hand, LBJ has shown that he can, at times, dominate in that way, but he's not that kind of player. He has a little Magic in him. He BOOSTS his teammates' self-esteem and confidence. The quotes from Boobie Gibson tell it all: "Lebron said keep shooting, he's going to make me a special player." Even if Kobe said that, nobody'd believe him. Different.
I think Lebron has a chance to be a truly special player. But only time will tell. He has a pretty shabby supporting cast, and he's made them better. Good enough to be the champs? I have my doubts. Will he stay in Cleveland and not go to NYC? I have my doubts.
Either way, LBJ's emergence in these playoffs has given me hope for the next few years of the NBA.
And that's good.
Last edited by faster on Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MANDRL
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
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faster
Good post man. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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I saw this on the Cleveland.com Cavs forum. It made an intriguing point. What do you think?
197710. If the Cavs do pull this off, there's no doubt
by drinkfirst, 6/5/07 23:59 ET
that they will essentially become "Americas" team during the Lebron era, to a level that the Bulls really never reached. Because Lebron is such a bright, selfless guy - the casual fan, and the passionate fan of other teams, really appreciates that. You'll have most people just trying to sit back and take everything in that is the Lebron era, and will be cheering for the Cavs along the way. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Lebron James first four seasons: (2004 -2007)
2007 NBA Eastern Conference Champions with the Cavaliers
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 2004
NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2006
3-time NBA All-Star: 2005, 2006, 2007
3-time All-NBA:
First Team: 2006
Second Team: 2005, 2007
Kobe Bryant first four seasons: (1997-2000)
Career highlights
NBA Championship: 2000
NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, (No All-Star game in 1999 due to league-wide lock-out)
All-NBA Selection:
Second Team: 2000, 2001
Third Team: 1999
All Defensive Selection:
First Team: 2000
Second Team: 2001, 2002
NBA All-Rookie Second Team: 1997
NBA All-Star Slam Dunk Champion: 1997
They seem to match up pretty evenly with Lebron having been named to all NBA 1st team once and Kobe not making that honor in his first four seasons.
Lebron was an All-Star Game MVP where as Kobe won the Slam Dunk contest. Lebron has never participated.
Lebron was the Rookie of the year, Kobe could not even start. Kobe won the 6th-man award his 2nd year.
To Kobe's advantage, he has been named to three all-defensive teams at this point in his career but only 1st team once in 2000. Lebron has never made an All-defensive team list.
In his 4th season, Kobe teamed up with Shaq to win an NBA title. In Lebron's fourth season he is leading a rag tag team into the NBA finals, we will have to wait to see if he wins a title.
Again, I want to mention that for the last three seasons, Lebron has averaged more than 25 ppg, 6 rpg, and 6 apg. Only Oscar Robertson has done this. Kobe has never done this.
Anyway, I would say through 4 seasons in the NBA, the two are pretty even. The argument for giving Kobe the nod would be his all-defensive selections. The argument for giving Lebron the nod would be the fact that he has never played with as talented players as Kobe has and his selfless, team oriented play makes him the better player. Also, Lebron fills out the stat sheet more with his rebounds and assists.
Regardless, it is pretty even. |
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MANDRL
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
Lebron James first four seasons: (2004 -2007)
2007 NBA Eastern Conference Champions with the Cavaliers
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 2004
NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2006
3-time NBA All-Star: 2005, 2006, 2007
3-time All-NBA:
First Team: 2006
Second Team: 2005, 2007
Kobe Bryant first four seasons: (1997-2000)
Career highlights
NBA Championship: 2000
NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, (No All-Star game in 1999 due to league-wide lock-out)
All-NBA Selection:
Second Team: 2000, 2001
Third Team: 1999
All Defensive Selection:
First Team: 2000
Second Team: 2001, 2002
NBA All-Rookie Second Team: 1997
NBA All-Star Slam Dunk Champion: 1997
They seem to match up pretty evenly with Lebron having been named to all NBA 1st team once and Kobe not making that honor in his first four seasons.
Lebron was an All-Star Game MVP where as Kobe won the Slam Dunk contest. Lebron has never participated.
Lebron was the Rookie of the year, Kobe could not even start. Kobe won the 6th-man award his 2nd year.
To Kobe's advantage, he has been named to three all-defensive teams at this point in his career but only 1st team once in 2000. Lebron has never made an All-defensive team list.
In his 4th season, Kobe teamed up with Shaq to win an NBA title. In Lebron's fourth season he is leading a rag tag team into the NBA finals, we will have to wait to see if he wins a title.
Again, I want to mention that for the last three seasons, Lebron has averaged more than 25 ppg, 6 rpg, and 6 apg. Only Oscar Robertson has done this. Kobe has never done this.
Anyway, I would say through 4 seasons in the NBA, the two are pretty even. The argument for giving Kobe the nod would be his all-defensive selections. The argument for giving Lebron the nod would be the fact that he has never played with as talented players as Kobe has and his selfless, team oriented play makes him the better player. Also, Lebron fills out the stat sheet more with his rebounds and assists.
Regardless, it is pretty even. |
Not even close to even, why?
Championships:
Kobe - 3
LeBron - 0
No discussion. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| My point is Kobe's first championship was in his 4th year, the same year that James is in now and playing in the NBA finals. The other two championships happened in his fifth and sixth year. So, yes, it is close, with maybe the advantage going to Lebron. |
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