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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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My understanding is that one of the reasones that Thais, same as Fillipinos, Indonesians etc have such terrible factory conditions because they are often employed (indirectly) by American companies who don't pay tax or contribute anything towards their workers welfare (because it's indirect) whereas Korea have a system where corporations are Korean national interests rather than Americans
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An Indonesian who works for an American "sweatshop" earns more than most government employees and 12 times the minimum wage. Johan Norberg has done great research (using, like, numbers and stuff) on this topic.
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This is my guess as to why there was so much rubbish that was 'Made in Korea' in the 80s before Korea was a wealthy nation, whereas now it is 'Made in Thailand' or 'Made in The Philipines' because they were still under a capitalist dictatorship like the Justice Party and the Republicans
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So, the quality of what is produced in a factory is directly related to the political organization? What of Singapore then? Now, the PAP is hardly a democratic party but Singapore is a very high quality production hub. But that aside, are you sure that you can back up the assertion that wages have done most of their increasing under the democratic governments in Korea... That might be a difficult correlation to prove (cause it isn't true). Add Chile, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, China to the ROK example and the idea that democracy = economic growth gets quite weak.
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and BTW Thailand was a British colony in all but name before England abandoned colonialism. |
The Thais would disagree with you.
I think that you haven't ever studied development (with numbers, not tears) or economics. Or history, right? Are you a fresh grad? Your ideas are standard undergrad leftist. You won't hold them in two years. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Treefarmer wrote: |
and to answer the question directly
yes, the US and the EU are rich in my opinion due to theft of labour and resources |
Fair enough.
And what of Korea? Is Korea rich only due to theft of labour and resources? How about Hong Kong, Singapore, Chile? Botswana has had amazing economic growth...due to theft? Hey, is Hungary poor cause they didn't steal enough?
And the Soviet Union. The largest case of theft in human history. All those tens of millions of people sending their enslaved labour to Moscow. And yet Russia is a deeply poor country, and Poland, Estonia and some others are doing quite well!
How about Finland. Rich as rich, but no colonial history. Japan was bombed back to the stone age and now is the number 2 economy. Germany too. The German growth happened after they were leveled by Imperialist Yankee Dog bombs during the "unpleasantness". Germany and Japan did not have economies after WW2. All that they have, they have built since then. And without theft!
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| capitalist dictatorship |
Explain to me what a "capitalist dictatorship" is. Be sure to differentiate it from corporatism and mercantilism. Remember that "capitalism" (which is the word that Marx used to describe classical liberalism) rests on private property, free movement of people/goods and individual rights.
Look. I could mess with you for months. You don't have a leg to stand on. What makes nations rich is the source of millions of pages of economic/political/development literature. If it was as simple as you learned at some douchbag lovefest on Ko San road, we would have all moved on. It isn't.
Go to the store and buy a sophisticated world view. |
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Nicco61
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
| in my view, a world with fewer falong gung or christians walking around in it is a good thing... hopefully their organs wont pollute whoever gets them. |
Wow!!! Killing someone for their beliefs?????
Sounds kinda:
[
Last edited by Nicco61 on Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Treefarmer
Joined: 29 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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i think you have quite an arrogant view BJWD although I appreciate that you have thought your opinions through, and they hold some weight, I have thought mine through and I graduated in 2004 which kind of fucks your theory up that I'm some naive undergrad 'reality bites' kid. I'm 27, and i question my views a lot because it's the only way to learn
I'm not going to answer your point on every country cos frankly I can't be arsed 
of the main ones that stood out
I wasn't associating quality of goods directly with workers quality of life, obviously skilled workers are better paid than unskilled workers, so it doesn't pay to have skilled workers if you want to exploit them because they have more value abroad, but it isn't just a direct equation like that, what i meant was that if someone has to do the shit like sew 6 million footballs together cos david beckham launches a book, it's not gonna be an american company that gets the contract
re: your point about sweatshops, the difference is like the example that otherwise the Indonesian would be working for less money on a farm, it doesn't wash with me, even if they are better paid jobs than governmet employees which is questionable because 86% of statistics are made up on the spot. it doesn't mean that they aren't still being stolen from because they are being paid so much less than their labour value, which was my original point about it being theft
just cos 3rd world governments are thieving from their workers, doesn't mean that America isn't thieving on a much grander scale form the whole 3rd world
both are true imo |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I very arrogantly tossed aside your silly and sweeping folk-narrative of wealth creation.
You won't be able to substantiate your claims with data. Do you know that?
Last point.
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| doesn't mean that America isn't thieving on a much grander scale form the whole 3rd world |
1) Present tense...
2) Only America? Not the other 30 or so industrialized nations?
3) Do patterns of trade demonstrate your claims?
Your ideas are typical nonsensical leftist tripe. I'm sorry if that is arrogant, but it is true.
If you want more sophisticated ideas, check out William Easterly's The Elusive Quest For Growth or Hernando de Soto's The Mystery of Capital. Those books are written by economists who care deeply about the poor (beyond misplaced guilt) and have actively and throughly examined causes of poverty and wealth. If you really want to challenge your views, try Johan Norberg's In Defense of Global Capitalism. It will knock your socks off.
Wealth comes from clearly defined property rights, a firm but reasonable rule of law, transparent government that allows to industry what industry does best and the embracing of technology. The ultimate driver of growth and wealth is entrepreneurs, and those societies that have unleashed, in the formal economy, the entrepreneur are significantly more successful than those that have not.
Take a long hard look at Singapore and Cuba. Really, honestly examine the ideological and policy differences between the two. Which is successful and why? |
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Treefarmer
Joined: 29 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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well i'll just take your view about being arrogant and laugh at how you right wing people all got excited about Fukyama 
'the end of history'
i don't think i'll ever take a right wing 'intellectual' seriously again after reading that after russian communism folded history was over (till the right wing created all the crises which we told you you would create and had to create more wars)
i would love for a fair government to prove me wrong but i have never seen any (socialist or capitalist) |
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Treefarmer
Joined: 29 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| and in singapore it is illegal to buy chewing gum but it's legal to beat up kids, what a great example you came up with there |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Treefarmer wrote: |
| and in singapore it is illegal to buy chewing gum but it's legal to beat up kids, what a great example you came up with there |
I live in Singapore. I bought chewing gum just the other day. It is legal for who to beat up kids? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Treefarmer wrote: |
well i'll just take your view about being arrogant and laugh at how you right wing people all got excited about Fukyama
'the end of history'
i don't think i'll ever take a right wing 'intellectual' seriously again after reading that after russian communism folded history was over (till the right wing created all the crises which we told you you would create and had to create more wars)
i would love for a fair government to prove me wrong but i have never seen any (socialist or capitalist) |
What you have tried to do here is associate my position with Fukuyama and then "lol" Fukuyama's position into submission.
First things first. My position is that wealthy nations are so due to their ability to capture the physical, emotional and intellectual productive abilities of their citizens. Democracy isn't a requirement. Do you get that?
Fukuyama's position, that you didn't understand, was that the "war of ideas" was over. Liberal markets and democracy would ultimately triumph around the world. The simpletons, which you are one, took this to mean that democracy would cover the globe today, at the day of printing. Of course, this is a similar reaction that simpletons have to Nietzsche's idea of the "death of god". It is about the idea, not the actual outcome.
I have reservations about Fukuyama's thesis, and he actually best criticizes his own position in the last third of the book (which you did not read).
I'm right wing? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Nicco:
That swastika is creating MAJOR sidescroll on this thread. Does it really have to be so big? I think we all know what that flag stands for, without having it supersized. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| Well anyone who believes Jonah lived in the whale, Jesus walked on water, or Mohamed had his heart removed in the desert buy a guy carrying a bowl of snow can hardly be considered a sane individual so the Chinese might be onto something. |
The same thing used to be said of us (a.k.a. homos), Octavius. I would think a person who is a generation or two removed from similar treatment would be a little more careful about what he says.
Peace |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| freethought wrote: |
| in my view, a world with fewer falong gung or christians walking around in it is a good thing... hopefully their organs wont pollute whoever gets them. |
wow ... jews too or is that just too non-PC for you libs? |
FREETHOUGHT YOU COWARD ANSWER THE QUESTION |
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Treefarmer
Joined: 29 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Treefarmer wrote: |
| and in singapore it is illegal to buy chewing gum but it's legal to beat up kids, what a great example you came up with there |
I live in Singapore. I bought chewing gum just the other day. It is legal for who to beat up kids? |
sure ya do |
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Treefarmer
Joined: 29 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Treefarmer wrote: |
well i'll just take your view about being arrogant and laugh at how you right wing people all got excited about Fukyama
'the end of history'
i don't think i'll ever take a right wing 'intellectual' seriously again after reading that after russian communism folded history was over (till the right wing created all the crises which we told you you would create and had to create more wars)
i would love for a fair government to prove me wrong but i have never seen any (socialist or capitalist) |
What you have tried to do here is associate my position with Fukuyama and then "lol" Fukuyama's position into submission.
First things first. My position is that wealthy nations are so due to their ability to capture the physical, emotional and intellectual productive abilities of their citizens. Democracy isn't a requirement. Do you get that?
Fukuyama's position, that you didn't understand, was that the "war of ideas" was over. Liberal markets and democracy would ultimately triumph around the world. The simpletons, which you are one, took this to mean that democracy would cover the globe today, at the day of printing. Of course, this is a similar reaction that simpletons have to Nietzsche's idea of the "death of god". It is about the idea, not the actual outcome.
I have reservations about Fukuyama's thesis, and he actually best criticizes his own position in the last third of the book (which you did not read).
I'm right wing? |
Yes you are right wing, you have been defending capitalism and declaring the idea that anyone but the ruling class will ever have power as naive
The war of ideals is not over, the only way that it can be over is a situation where the working class gain power, or the middle class manage to reverse human progress
if wealthy nations are wealthy because they have better captured the hearts of their citizens, like you say, why is America such a fucking mess? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Yes you are right wing, you have been defending capitalism and declaring the idea that anyone but the ruling class will ever have power as naive |
Are you sure? You are just a troll right? Like the low class Brits who say "your just havin a laugh" right?
I believe in human freedom. Political, social and economic.
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The war of ideals is not over, the only way that it can be over is a situation where the working class gain power, or the middle class manage to reverse human progress |
Ok. So, North Korea or Cuba is your model. Groovy.
Let me ask you a simple question...
Is democracy the highest political ideal?
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if wealthy nations are wealthy because they have better captured the hearts of their citizens, like you say, why is America such a *beep* mess?
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I never used the word "heart". That is really flaky. I said the "emotional, intellectual and physical productive abilities". I'll be more clear.
Humans can like, build stuff dude, yeah, and like, some countries totally encourage them to build, you know, stuff and other countries totally burn them and harsh their buzz. |
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