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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Shhhhhh...your false evolution religion is safe, buddy. It's OK. You don't have to say I'm lying to protect your own unproven faith. |
Religion appeals to a god. Science does not. Science views knowledge as tentative. Religion does not. There are some elements to all religions that are not subject to revision. Christians will not change their belief Jesus rose from the dead, for example. No evidence would convince a Christian it did not happen, while there is sufficient evidence to convince a scientist that the periodic table is incorrect. Those are two key differences between religion and science.
And you've not actually bothered to defend that assumption. You just keep repeating your premise. Your logical skills are weak.
How is science a religion? |
YAWN! I never stated science was a religion...evolution most certainly is. True science would never state, as do people here on this very board, that evolution is a fact. It is a theory and the way some people worship evolution makes it a religion as well, complete with its own temples and dogma. That you would say because I question the THEORY of evolution I lump it in with real science is laughable...no, take that back, its sad. Yes, gravity is a theory as well but at least I can see it working every moment of every day...not so with macro-evolution. I've said from the beginning that creation is not provable either. I wasn't around to witness it...were you?
Now, if you pray very hard and keep spewing your church's line, maybe the fairy monkey will visit you and change you into another species as well! |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
Wannago,
Im still waiting for evidence that God created all the species. That Noah guy must have been brilliant to know all about the millions of species on earth, even ones we dont know anything about. Then he must have been a brilliant engineer to create state of the art ark and equipment to house all those species. The logistics must have been a nightmare, you know with all the collecting he must have done on all the continents of the world. And God only gave him like a couple of weeks to get it all done!
Now, whats silly, you idiots who believe in this crap or us?
And screw it, take biology out of it. Astronomers have basically nailed the age of the universe down cold. Its over 15billion years old, give or take a half a billion. Totally discrediting Genesis. |
You don't seem to get it. I'm not out to prove Creation is the truth. There is no way to do it. Creation is a theory only and, frankly, you could and should question it all you like. Why are you so anal about people questioning evolution and not buying the goods? Why does it threaten you? You sure have a lot of emotion wrapped up in something that isn't a faith. Good luck with your struggle. God loves you (or the Fairy Monkey in your church). |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| YAWN! I never stated science was a religion...evolution most certainly is. True science would never state, as do people here on this very board, that evolution is a fact. |
Who said that and in what context did they say it was a "fact"?
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| It is a theory and the way some people worship evolution makes it a religion as well, complete with its own temples and dogma. |
Evolution, like theories in science, is subject to revision and over throw. Religion is not. You can keep calling a brochure a book but it's not a book. You're basically committing the continuum fallacy here. You believe there is fuzzy demarcation line therefore it is proper to call science a religion. Bzzt.
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| That you would say because I question the THEORY of evolution I lump it in with real science is laughable...no, take that back, its sad. Yes, gravity is a theory as well but at least I can see it working every moment of every day...not so with macro-evolution. |
As I've noted, a large body of science isn't about what you see in the labs. Much of it comes from inference.
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| I've said from the beginning that creation is not provable either. I wasn't around to witness it...were you? |
Do you have any evidence? I can claim the world rests on the back of a giant turtle. Evidence, man. What you got? I've given you mine.
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| Now, if you pray very hard and keep spewing your church's line, maybe the fairy monkey will visit you and change you into another species as well! |
Is that the best you can offer? Your scholarship equals your critical thinking.
And you're mixing up the definition of theory. A theory in science means there is very strong evidence to support it. Creation theory is creation hypothesis in a scientific sense. Score another one for your gross ignorance about things you believe you can speak of knowledgeably.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:38 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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just a quick note...
creationism is not a 'theory'... it's fiction. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
You don't seem to get it. I'm not out to prove Creation is the truth. There is no way to do it. Creation is a theory only and, frankly, you could and should question it all you like. |
Morons without the basic understanding of terms they are throwing around should just shut the hell up. Creationism isnt a theaory. Its a fairy tale.
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| Why are you so anal about people questioning evolution and not buying the goods? Why does it threaten you? |
Doesnt bother me one bit. Keep it in church. It does bother me when some would like to replace science with fairy tales they seem to think are science. Keep creationism in churches but out of schools.
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| (or the Fairy Monkey in your church). |
I'm a Catholic. You just called Christ a monkey. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
just a quick note...
creationism is not a 'theory'... it's fiction. |
And Gravity ISNT A THEORY, Gravity is a LAW.
However guess what ladies and gerntlemen, boys anf girls, the evengelicals are no longer happy questioning just evolution, no no, they are now after gravity too
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| "Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University. |
God is pushing things down, people...yes!!!!!
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| "We just want the best possible education for Kansas' kids," Burdett said |
LOL
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| "Let's take a look at the evidence," said ECFR senior fellow Gregory Lunsden." |
Cool!! Bring it on!!!!
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| In Matthew 15:14, Jesus says, 'And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.' He says nothing about some gravity making them fall�just that they will fall. Then, in Job 5:7, we read, 'But mankind is born to trouble, as surely as sparks fly upwards.' If gravity is pulling everything down, why do the sparks fly upwards with great surety? This clearly indicates that a conscious intelligence governs all falling." |
HEHEHEHHE Their evidence against Newton and Einstein is a passage from the NT?
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512
Well, ok its from the Onion, and yes, its a joke but it really is about the same as the creationists. Intelligent Falling, Intelligent design...pure shit. |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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first, people need to distinguish between 'science' and 'biology'. science is not, nor has it ever been, a monolithic enterprise. there is nothing about creation/intelligent design/anthropic cosmological principle et al that makes them fundamentally incompatible with biology. sure, some religious fanatics/morons who have underhanded motives may equate intelligent design with religion, but i see no essential connection at all.
the debate between louis agassiz and charles darwin (also see charles lyell) represents an important development in the history of thought. one was a biologist and one wasn't, so each was coming from different perspectives and making different assumptions and scrutinizing vastly different phenomena. the evolution paradigm is one that is very convincing and there is a good bit of evidence to support it, but we still don't really have any knowledge about how life began. no explanation for the origin of life can claim any epistemological advantage over the other: if you would like to believe that form and matter and energy spontaneously combined to create unicellular organisms then that's ok, but it is entirely based on faith. nothing about it can be said to have any relation to knowledge. an expanding universe has little or no bearing on biology.
mendel was a great scientist, far better than most of the clinical technocrats in white lab suits you see today. most 'scientists' today are simply employees. most of of what we call science is merely heuristic and has a pragmatic goal. a great example is the debate over species concepts. of course, there is no 'species' of anything (in an existential sense), and there is no definition of species that works for all life forms. if we applied the same formulas that we do for plants, then the aboriginal people of australia could not possibly be homo sapiens. phytogeography is much closer aligned to geology than is zoology for example (let's not even talk about physics, chemistry etc), but the fact is all the empirical data we use is represents a tiny fraction of the actual fossil record. when we speak of 'species' we are making an effort to communicate, nothing more and nothing less. we are not making an epistemological argument. on the other hand, if we can agree on terms and definitions, sometimes we can agree. it is those times (and only those times) when we all agree when we can call something knowledge (e.g. when an object with a mass greater than air is suspended and released, it falls toward the earth).
people who vehemently defend evolutionary theory are similar to those who defend religious teachings. any educated person knows fred leuchter was simply stating what he believed with the experience that he had at the time. do yourselves a favor: investigate and experiment. reading origin of species could be a start, but looking at barnacles for three years would be better. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Im nor defending anything Im simply discounting ID as absolute crap, on par with Intelligent Falling |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| Im nor defending anything Im simply discounting ID as absolute crap, on par with Intelligent Falling |
i'd be interested in your ideas concerning how life began (on earth). many people throughout history who are smarter than you or me have wrestled with it. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| And Gravity ISNT A THEORY, Gravity is a LAW. |
Sorry jinju. It's been kicked down since "black-holeologists" observed matter (or was it light?) escaping from a black hole. Since then, there have been other instances where gravity has been called into question.
That said, fantastic quotes there. Funny stuff.
| Quote: |
| I never stated science was a religion...evolution most certainly is. True science would never state, as do people here on this very board, that evolution is a fact. It is a theory and the way some people worship evolution makes it a religion as well, complete with its own temples and dogma. |
There is a fantastic expression that reads "It's good to have your mind open; just not on both ends".
I'm sure the warm feeling you get in your mind from thinking "Yes, my skepticism regarding evolution is valid. I am keeping an open mind and therefore, I am more intelligent than those who agree with the theory of evolution".
Here is the problem.
Skepticism is only of use if you are an informed skeptic; otherwise it makes one look pigheaded and ignorant. If you were/would be able to provide evolution proponents here with your own personal informed somewhat scientific opinions as to what the problems are with evolution (beyond the trite "you can't reproduce it in a lab"), you'd find an open ear.
As it is, your one trick pony has been hobbled and it is becoming clear that your understanding of basic scientific principles is really lacking. People here, thus far, have been politely trying to show you the light but you keep repeating "just go on with your religion" as though you are actually making a point.
You are not.
Given the amount of information availible, the ease of access one has to said information, and the clarity with which this information is presented, it's very difficult for a reasonable person who has done their research to remain unconvinced in the likelihood of evolution. So I'm sure everyone here would appreciate it if you did some more research.
| Quote: |
| Yes, gravity is a theory as well but at least I can see it working every moment of every day...not so with macro-evolution. |
How can you be so self aggrandizing as to think that something can only exist if YOU witness it? |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| insam wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| Im nor defending anything Im simply discounting ID as absolute crap, on par with Intelligent Falling |
i'd be interested in your ideas concerning how life began (on earth). many people throughout history who are smarter than you or me have wrestled with it. |
Who knows. It didnt pop up magically because some guy wished it. |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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you and i are willing to admit we don't know, many people (scientific and religious) claim they 'know'. i know where you're coming from. personally, i prefer socrates more to darwin but respect the whole empirical thing nonetheless.
anyway, may father has a doctorate in theology. when i was a teenager i wavered between atheist and agnostic. as a father myself i listen to my daughter (age 7) who is convinced there's a god (her mom takes her to church). i would never bash any cool, free thinking individual who chooses to believe anything. i believe the logical empiricists (logical positivists) were the only people to ever understand knowledge, but that makes me a dull boy.  Sometimes imagination is better. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| insam wrote: |
| people who vehemently defend evolutionary theory are similar to those who defend religious teachings. any educated person knows fred leuchter was simply stating what he believed with the experience that he had at the time. do yourselves a favor: investigate and experiment. reading origin of species could be a start, but looking at barnacles for three years would be better. |
Let me draw the analogy of a guy who goes into a GTO forum and claims his Honda Civic is the fastest production car ever made. He's free to believe that, but he does so in the face of all evidence to the contrary. He may well just be mocked.
Who are these people who vehemently defend evolution? Sure yes we vehemently defend it here. We love to argue about anything and everything. It's Dave's. But we're not representative of scientists working in biological science or any science that involves evolution (say, paleontology). So who? Can you give me a good example?
Last edited by mindmetoo on Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I never stated science was a religion...evolution most certainly is. True science would never state, as do people here on this very board, that evolution is a fact. It is a theory and the way some people worship evolution makes it a religion as well, complete with its own temples and dogma. |
There is a fantastic expression that reads "It's good to have your mind open; just not on both ends".
I'm sure the warm feeling you get in your mind from thinking "Yes, my skepticism regarding evolution is valid. I am keeping an open mind and therefore, I am more intelligent than those who agree with the theory of evolution". |
Wow! You're psychic too? How cool are you? I've never stated nor insinuated that I'm more intelligent than anyone else. However, my skepticism toward evolution is valid as is my skepticism toward creationism. The way you "read" things says a lot about you though, doesn't it?
| khyber wrote: |
| Here is the problem. |
Wrong. HERE is the problem. I'm not trying to prove or disprove evolution or creation. What about that do you not get? I'm just saying that both are theories and, therefore, both are taken on faith...whether you like it or not.
| khyber wrote: |
| Skepticism is only of use if you are an informed skeptic; otherwise it makes one look pigheaded and ignorant. If you were/would be able to provide evolution proponents here with your own personal informed somewhat scientific opinions as to what the problems are with evolution (beyond the trite "you can't reproduce it in a lab"), you'd find an open ear. |
Look, I've done this all before. We could start having nasty posts about poystrate (sp?) fossils or puncuated equilibrium or the lack of any evidence for the beginning of life as the evolutionists see it or the problems with radiocarbon dating but, it remains clear, that people will not change their mind about their faith...creation or evolution because neither has the goods to be proven. I fully admit that evolution interprets the evidence to make a neat little story and it has been packaged and accepted by a great many people. That doesn't make it a fact.
| khyber wrote: |
As it is, your one trick pony has been hobbled and it is becoming clear that your understanding of basic scientific principles is really lacking. People here, thus far, have been politely trying to show you the light but you keep repeating "just go on with your religion" as though you are actually making a point.
You are not. |
Show me the light? About what? Surely you don't mean that, since I don't buy into your faith, I'm somehow unenlightened, do you? How "enlightened" of you.
| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, gravity is a theory as well but at least I can see it working every moment of every day...not so with macro-evolution. |
How can you be so self aggrandizing as to think that something can only exist if YOU witness it? |
Gee, I'm sorry, were you talking about the existence of God? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Look, I've done this all before. We could start having nasty posts about poystrate (sp?) fossils or puncuated equilibrium or the lack of any evidence for the beginning of life as the evolutionists see it or the problems with radiocarbon dating but, it remains clear, that people will not change their mind about their faith...creation or evolution because neither has the goods to be proven. I fully admit that evolution interprets the evidence to make a neat little story and it has been packaged and accepted by a great many people. That doesn't make it a fact. |
No, but it makes it a well established scientific theory. You have a better one?
What is your problem with radiocarbon dating? You realize that's only one example of a number radiometric dating techniques? |
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