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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| insam wrote: |
| people who vehemently defend evolutionary theory are similar to those who defend religious teachings. any educated person knows fred leuchter was simply stating what he believed with the experience that he had at the time. do yourselves a favor: investigate and experiment. reading origin of species could be a start, but looking at barnacles for three years would be better. |
Let me draw the analogy of a guy who goes into a GTO forum and claims his Honda Civic is the fastest production car ever made. He's free to believe that, but he does so in the face of all evidence to the contrary. He may well just be mocked.
Who are these people who vehemently defend evolution? Sure yes we vehemently defend it here. We love to argue about anything and everything. It's Dave's. But we're not representative of scientists working in biological science or any science that involves evolution (say, paleontology). So who? Can you give me a good example? |
either we're representative or we have nothing to say. don't try to argue about things if you have no expertise. your comment about the cars is ridiculous, i never disputed empirical facts. a car that is faster is faster. so what? if you don't have a good empirical and theoretical understanding of biology, then why are you posting here in favor of certain biological theories at the expense of others? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| insam wrote: |
| then why are you posting here in favor of certain biological theories at the expense of others? |
I like to debate and learn something in the process.
My car analogy wasn't about you. It was in reference to wannago. He is doing the equivalent of arguing a Honda Civic is the fastest car on the road. The evidence is entirely against that position. It's not a faith-based proposition.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| fair enough |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think that alternative views - even if postulated on the existence of a supreme designing intelligence (which happens to be the absolute truth of the matter anyway...) - may be presented in science classes as long as they follow some rigorous methodology considered scientific by at least some well respected scientists - and it is clearly explained to students that the vast majority of scientists support whatever the currently dominant theory of evolution is ...
Why should science have either a pro or anti religious - or theistic or atheistic - bias? ...
Is the idea of a supreme sentient being with unlimited consciousness, energy, and intelligence too humbling a thought for some big puffed-up atheistic scientists (with big designs of their own...) to deal with?... |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| exactly, the quodlibetal questions of aquinas and others of the scholastic tradition were every bit as rigorous as anything we have today. it's like our sat essays but more challenging. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| insam wrote: |
| then why are you posting here in favor of certain biological theories at the expense of others? |
I like to debate and learn something in the process.
My car analogy wasn't about you. It was in reference to wannago. He is doing the equivalent of arguing a Honda Civic is the fastest car on the road. The evidence is entirely against that position. It's not a faith-based proposition. |
Nice analogy. Too bad it isn't applicable. First, I'm not arguing in favor of any theory because they both come up way short of being able to prove that they have the answers. I choose creation based purely on faith...nothing more. While we can test to see which car is the fastest on the road, we can do no such thing with the origins of life, now can we? Believing in evolution IS an act of faith not only because I haven't observed the macro side of it...NO ONE ALIVE HAS. Likewise with Creation.
Hey, you can obviously believe whatever you like. The only thing that I take exception to is evolutionists spouting the "if you don't believe like us you are ignorant or a moron and probably both" mantra. You have been so indoctrinated in your "faith" that you can't see it for what it is. |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| insam wrote: |
| then why are you posting here in favor of certain biological theories at the expense of others? |
I like to debate and learn something in the process.
My car analogy wasn't about you. It was in reference to wannago. He is doing the equivalent of arguing a Honda Civic is the fastest car on the road. The evidence is entirely against that position. It's not a faith-based proposition. |
Nice analogy. Too bad it isn't applicable. First, I'm not arguing in favor of any theory because they both come up way short of being able to prove that they have the answers. I choose creation based purely on faith...nothing more. While we can test to see which car is the fastest on the road, we can do no such thing with the origins of life, now can we? Believing in evolution IS an act of faith not only because I haven't observed the macro side of it...NO ONE ALIVE HAS. Likewise with Creation.
Hey, you can obviously believe whatever you like. The only thing that I take exception to is evolutionists spouting the "if you don't believe like us you are ignorant or a moron and probably both" mantra. You have been so indoctrinated in your "faith" that you can't see it for what it is. |
evolution in and of itself is not a leap of faith. if you are talking about the origins of life, then i agree with you as i previously posted. however, observation (e.g. strict empirical data) can demonstrate that evolution does occur in reality. i'm not talking about origins. i don't believe evolution demonstrates anything related to origins but it clearly proves many things related to development (e.g.evolution=change, not origin). therefore, you can have your faith in peace and allow for the real change that we can document biologically. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Believing in evolution IS an act of faith not only because I haven't observed the macro side of it...NO ONE ALIVE HAS. Likewise with Creation. |
The leap of faith required to believe in evolution is infitescimal compared to that required for straight up creation.
Although it really just depends on what you define "faith" to be.
No one alive can attest to anything beyond 150 year history based on their experience and yet we have knowledge that extends past that time frame.
The idea that someone has to be alive to observe evolution (in order for it to be true) is just as ludicrious as if it were only you. As mentioned, inferential knowledge is important to consider. |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| this is the point and (in my opinion) is the greatest challenge for education (not just language). when we use the word 'know' we should be responsible for the implications of that concept. see my earlier post related to logical empiricism. people need to stop saying 'i know' colloquially. it simply makes no sense. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
Nice analogy. Too bad it isn't applicable. First, I'm not arguing in favor of any theory because they both come up way short of being able to prove that they have the answers. I choose creation based purely on faith...nothing more. While we can test to see which car is the fastest on the road, we can do no such thing with the origins of life, now can we? Believing in evolution IS an act of faith not only because I haven't observed the macro side of it...NO ONE ALIVE HAS. Likewise with Creation. |
The analogy is applicable in that the civic owner, like you, has a belief, seeks no evidence for that belief, but then claims those who have found evidence for their beliefs are wrong and yet offers no evidence why the GTO owners are wrong.
Yes, at least the civic owner could put his beliefs to a test. You apparently can't. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| I think that alternative views - even if postulated on the existence of a supreme designing intelligence (which happens to be the absolute truth of the matter anyway...) - may be presented in science classes as long as they follow some rigorous methodology considered scientific by at least some well respected scientists - and it is clearly explained to students that the vast majority of scientists support whatever the currently dominant theory of evolution is ... |
You've advanced that idea before. Yet, you've not been able to demonstrate one alternative that employs a rigorous methodology. Cremo? Tell us about the Meister prints again or the Starchild skull..
Yes, if there was another "view" that met the rigorous tests of science, then bring it on. ID tried in court and lost badly. Badly.
Look, the point of high school science is not indoctrination. It's about teaching the basic science that students need when they reach the university or college level. No one suggests we give equal time to religious people who believe the germ theory of disease is wrong. There is no great movement afoot to remove big bang and basic cosmology from high school science. There is no great movement afoot to remove basic geology (ie glaciers 20,000 years ago are responsible for such and such features) from high school geography.
Why evolution? Did anyone see glaciers making moraines? I guess that's just religion too. Some people don't like evolution because it directly contradicts the most mind numbing literal interpretation of one religion's holy book.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
Wannago,
Im still waiting for evidence that God created all the species. That Noah guy must have been brilliant to know all about the millions of species on earth, even ones we dont know anything about. Then he must have been a brilliant engineer to create state of the art ark and equipment to house all those species. The logistics must have been a nightmare, you know with all the collecting he must have done on all the continents of the world. And God only gave him like a couple of weeks to get it all done!
Now, whats silly, you idiots who believe in this crap or us?
And screw it, take biology out of it. Astronomers have basically nailed the age of the universe down cold. Its over 15billion years old, give or take a half a billion. Totally discrediting Genesis. |
You don't seem to get it. I'm not out to prove Creation is the truth. There is no way to do it. Creation is a theory only and, frankly, you could and should question it all you like. Why are you so anal about people questioning evolution and not buying the goods? Why does it threaten you? You sure have a lot of emotion wrapped up in something that isn't a faith. Good luck with your struggle. God loves you (or the Fairy Monkey in your church). |
Oh, I don't question it, I simply recognize that it is a philosophical theory, and nothing more. In other words, it's all in your head. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Here is some great photo evidence right here
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Hey, you can obviously believe whatever you like. The only thing that I take exception to is evolutionists spouting the "if you don't believe like us you are ignorant or a moron and probably both" mantra. You have been so indoctrinated in your "faith" that you can't see it for what it is. |
Myself, I guess what annoys me is seeing creationists and other religious fanatics turning public school into churches where THEIR faith is taught ... evolution at least has some logic behind it. Creationism just has a very old book, translated many times and interpreted hundreds of different ways.
Not a bad book, by the way, as old books go. Lotta good stuff in there. This stuff about it everything happening in 7 days just doesn't fly, though. This is known to be true. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Hey, you can obviously believe whatever you like. The only thing that I take exception to is evolutionists spouting the "if you don't believe like us you are ignorant or a moron and probably both" mantra. You have been so indoctrinated in your "faith" that you can't see it for what it is. |
Myself, I guess what annoys me is seeing creationists and other religious fanatics turning public school into churches where THEIR faith is taught ... evolution at least has some logic behind it. Creationism just has a very old book, translated many times and interpreted hundreds of different ways.
Not a bad book, by the way, as old books go. Lotta good stuff in there. This stuff about it everything happening in 7 days just doesn't fly, though. This is known to be true. |
I tend to agree with you about not turning public schools into churches...for ANY religion, including evolution. No one has the goods to say they are correct. Evolution ought to be questioned and ridiculed for its lack of evidence and proof of its claims. Creation, I believe, should also be ridiculed for being a story from a "very old book". I don't have a problem with that. Neither side is logical...NEITHER side. You accept both on faith. As an evolutionist, just don't keep asserting that it's your way or I'm stupid. I, as a believer in Creation, promise to do likewise. Now, if we could just get others to do the same. |
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