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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| Survey after survey of families in uniform over the years has found that at least two-thirds vote Republican. As one who grew up in the military and served, I can vouch for that demographic. |
I'm sorry Steve. This is not relevant.
The constant portrayal of the military as being something above or more noble than the average person is fetishising them. You are removing the human and replacing it with an idea.
All militaristic cultures have done this throughout history. The US is no different.
The absolute refusal of those of you on the right to allow criticism of the military, and refuse to allow for any form of accountability for them is this fetishism in action.
Take a look back. At no point did I speak negatively of those doing the job. However, I have spoken negatively of those who have been using them to further their political and social aims over the last few decades.
But you and the rest of the right have attempted to place them as ideal representatives of you world views. And you all have ridden upon their backs as a way to vilify your ideological rivals. Sorry, but you're using them.
You and your ilk fetishise them as saints. But saints have to die in order to fulfill their social roles. Those who support the Iraq Invasion and the idea that soldiers are these noble beings are every bit as responsible for their deaths as the roadside bombs. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I'd say "raving" |
Stevie, if you don't know what words mean, you shouldn't attempt to use them in public.
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| you calling yourself a libertarian is the political equivalent of a gender identity crisis |
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| I've never claimed to be a libertarian, either. Indeed, I've criticized certain aspects of that political belief in previous threads if you bothered to read beyond the first sentence of my posts. |
Well, since you are not worth the research, I'll take your word for it. If so, my bad.
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| Nice try, BLT, with the online editiorial you posted. It just so happens that VoteVets.org is a PAC who advisers include two prominent Democrats in Congress and Wesley Clark, who has his own political axe to grind. |
Thanks for the idiotic comments, but neither those democrats nor Clark founded the organization. The founder spoke for himself. Thanks for the bullshit, but I don't have a garden to use in just now.
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| Are you so naive to think that all vets speak with a united voice? |
Thanks for the even more idiotic question. Not even going to bother with this one...
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| The vast majority, though, support the top brass despite your wishful thinking to the contrary. |
Prove it.
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| If anything, the dissenting voices on that website demonstrate that soldiers can and do think for themselves, |
Their thinking is not the issue. The issue is their muzzling. Or ar you ignoring the recent restrictions of their access to blogging, etc.?
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I stand by my assertion that Pace was let go because of the fiasco his renomination would have created on Capitol Hill.
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Who cares? Is that an issue I have raised? Is that the point of your thread? Thje answer to either is "No."
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| And no one here has disputed my charge that this is the first time a member of the very top brass has been so publicly chastised by either political party. |
Well, we think it's a good thing. Who the frick cares if it is the first or the 100th?
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twg wrote:
I
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| think the fetishism of the right for the military is more damaging than any negativity that may come from other quarters |
Oh, so now patriotism manifest as loyalty is a fetish? Man, that's weird even for you. |
Yeah, it's important whether "fetish" is the best word choice in that sentence.  Great way to avoid the point, though, stevie. Patriotism? Bullshit. There is not a patriotic bone in your body. You slander your fellow Americans without a thought. You are derisive, dismissive, disgusting in your puked out comments. You support what is worst about this administration and people.
Sorry, but patriotism has nothing to do with destroying a nation for personal gain and the control of their resources. It has nothing to do with party affiliation. It has nothing to do with religious intolerance. It has nothing to do with restricting rights. It has nothing to do with torture.
Etc.
You haven't a clue what patriotism means. When you start championing the dissenting voice, start calling for the saving of lives being wasted, start calling for an economic policy that does not serve only the wealthy, start calling for the end of torture, the end of renditions an the restoration of habeus corpus... when you stand for the Constitution and the rule of law above all else as a citizen... you will be on the road to patriotism.
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| And while you may believe that the cause for which the soldiers is sent is "nothing," it doesn't mean the leaders who send them or most of the soldiers themselves who are sent feel the same way you do. |
So? Is that relevant to his position? No. I can only say murder is bad if murderers agree with me? I can only believe our space program is not useful if the astronauts agree with me?
I'm beginning to doubt your intelligence, stevie. Truly.
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| And as one who lives beyond American borders, it's pretty presumptuous of you to make such a reckless claim anyhow. With your "plague" talk you sound like a Monty Python character on crack. |
See above. Only Americans can have a legitimate opinion on America? Idiotic. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| Survey after survey of families in uniform over the years has found that at least two-thirds vote Republican. As one who grew up in the military and served, I can vouch for that demographic. |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297138/
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Have you ever served in the U.S. military?
Category % Total Kerry Bush Nader
Yes 18 41 57 0
No 82 50 49 0 |
Not quite 2/3rds. So I guess the more interesting questions are, why do the Republicans disdain blacks, who voted for Kerry at an 8:1 ratio? And why do the Republicans disdain Jews, who voted for Kerry at a 3:1 ratio?
Oh, and regarding the OP. You are right. We certainly don't need comments like this:
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| I have very serious concerns about General Casey�s nomination. I�m concerned about failed leadership, the message that sends to the rest of the military. I have hard questions to ask him, and I�I�m very skeptical about it. |
BTW, that comes from Sen. John McCain.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16634747/
Last edited by huffdaddy on Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
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McGarette/BJWD exchange about Ddeubel:
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stevemcgarrett wrote:
Use of the word "bloody" is a dead give-away that you're not American.
He isn't American. He isn't black either.
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Ddeubel has never claimed to be American or black. He's pretty up front about who he is, on his website. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: ... |
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| Se, there's a decent trhead going on with useful observations, |
A partisan accusing others of partisanship isn't a decent discussion. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, just a few points :
1. Pace said some dumb stuff. The dumb stuff he said, as EFLT pointed out had to do with commenting on a purely political matter (Scooter Libby) and expressing personal views about gays that are counter to official American military policy. Can't think of any reason he shouldn't be called on the carpet on account of dumb stuff he says.
2. A guy who stands up in uniform, in a public role, and says dumb stuff just might be making dumb decisions that can endanger our men and women, also in uniform. Doing less than criticizing that is unpatriotic.
3. Criticizing an individual for saying dumb stuff is not he same as failing to support the troops. One could easily argue it is the opposite. If fact, I will do so right now. These people deserve better than being led into harm's way some dumb guy making decisions that could endanger them unnecessarily.
4. Criticizing a single member of the military is not the same as criticizing the military as a whole, or denigrating the service they give to their country. And the higher you are in the chain of command, the more vulnerable one ought to be to scrutiny.
5. In the American system of government, Congress makes policy and the Executive branch carries it out. Congress is controlled by the opposition party at the moment, so it's natural to expect that all aspects of the war effort will be under increased scrutiny. The American public as a whole probably wanted this to happen, and that's why a Democratic majority was elected. Check history, happens a lot, especially in the second term of a president when people get unhappy.
6. Is there some element of gamesmanship involved here, regarding the power relationships between the two parties? Oh, very likely. Nothing bad about that, either. Democracy is a messy business, and there's an election coming up ... all of this is as things ought to be, actually.
7. The notion that Republicans support the military more than Democrats stems from the fact that, as a whole, they promote more spending measures that benefit the military while Democrats tend to favor social services. You can't make any leap from that checkbook-example to saying they love the men and women in uniform and that Democrats "disdain" them, especially since a lot of Democrats serve in the military at some point in their lives. There's just no logic there, sorry if you didn't notice.
8. Think I mentioned it somewhere before, no one loves peace more than a soldier, and it would be easy to argue that a better way to love them is to keep them somewhere they can make babies and hold people they love and keep them warm at night, far better than to send them to a foreign land for dubious purposes.
Actually, I think I will make that argument right here and right now. End this thing. End it yesterday, not tomorrow. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| Se, there's a decent trhead going on with useful observations, |
A partisan accusing others of partisanship isn't a decent discussion. |
You have yet to participate n an intelligent and useful manner in any thread I've participated in. 9/11? Didn't know your ass from a hole in the ground. you could not follow simple trails of logic and could not tell the difference between proof and evidence. Now, got anything on the topic? Or, like the post that I had responded to, are you just going to throw around more stupidity?
FYI: I am no partisan. I have always, and will continue to, vote for the best person for the job. At this point in time, the republicans are by and large a pack of mysoginistic, lying, racist, cowardly, scandalous, treasonous scumbags. Hasn't always been that way.
I would have, for example, been willing to vote for Powell. I encouraged my mother to vote for Reagan the first time he was elected. (Mistake, yes, but we all make mistakes.) Depending on who gets the Dem nod, I would vote for Ron Paul.
Now shut up. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Now shut up. |
Hey, now. Be nice.
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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BJWD wrote:
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| About the OP. The "brass" should be held accountable for the decisions they make. I do not believe that joining the army absolves one from public responsibility. |
Point to where I said in my OP that the top brass are absolved from public responsibility?
As for public scrutiny, it depends on the manner in which it is imposed. As another poster, cbclark4 noted, slandering and otherwise demeaning the person in that position is a new political tactic. These are career military personnel, not politicians, let's not forget.
Of course, they should testify before Congress since we are a nation with civilian leadership. That issue is a non-starter. But manipulating the necessarily close working relationship between the JCS and the White House to this extent is unprecedented to my knowledge.
And I would be just as disgusted if it were a Democratic appointee, just for the record.
huffdaddy wrote in reference to McCain:
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| Oh, and regarding the OP. You are right. We certainly don't need comments like this: |
I realize when you're huffing and puffing, it's not easy for you to stay on task, but do try.
It is perfectly reasonable and legitimate for a senator who serves on the nomination committee to express doubts, as McCain has done. It is not acceptable to label that individual grossly incompetent simply because of his duty to answer to the C-in-C, especially when the committee members are doing so to gain political leverage.
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| Not quite 2/3rds. So I guess the more interesting questions are, why do the Republicans disdain blacks, who voted for Kerry at an 8:1 ratio? And why do the Republicans disdain Jews, who voted for Kerry at a 3:1 ratio? |
First off, the actual percentage fluctuates. Historically, it has actually been higher on average. Your unintended syllogism is lame: voters vote on the basis of various perceptions that might have little or nothing to do with the party's stance toward them as a group, per se. Do you really think a third of all Jewish Americans would vote for Republicans if they felt the party was anti-Semitic? The self-appointed leadership of the Black Caucus and civil rights organizations have been Democratic voters themselves for more than half a century. And they encourage their flock to vote as a bloc by resorting to scare tactics. In fact, before the late 1950's, nearly half of all registered black voters were Republican. So what does that prove? Get a grip.
The Bobster wrote:
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| Pace said some dumb stuff. |
In your book, it was dumb, because you disagreed. In my book it was dumb because it gave ammo to the enemy, so to speak. At most it showed he was guility of an indiscretion. He is still, however, a citizen, a right he doesn't waive just because he wears the uniform. As for his intelligence and judgment, well that's a matter of open debate, now isn't it? But I'll wager my hefty monthly salary that his education far exceeds people like you and Reid who are quick to condescend.
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| Criticizing a single member of the military is not the same as criticizing the military as a whole |
Gee, ya think so? You get this week's award for stating the obvious. But it wasn't and isn't my driving concern in this thread.
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| Democracy is a messy business |
Ah, yes, the ultimate disclaimer. So a lot of flies are buzzing around Reid's desk right now.
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| You can't make any leap from that checkbook-example to saying they love the men and women in uniform and that Democrats "disdain" them |
Try to stay focused, will ya? No one's accusing those who vote Democrat of being traitors or less-than-patriotic. I am, however, accusing this particular Democratic congressional leadership of exploiting their political powers in an unseemingly and less than high spirited manner.
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| Think I mentioned it somewhere before, no one loves peace more than a soldier |
Congrats our in order: you also win this week's award for the best platitude. The rest of your statement, by the way, sounds like something I would have read in a pacifist leaflet at a Quaker hall meeting.
Let me respond with another platitude: Freedom isn't free.
EFLTrainer:
I see the meds have worn off. Man, you couldn't even last in the land of measured criticism for a week after your parole. So I won't dignify your comments with a response. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| S&M wrote: |
It is perfectly reasonable and legitimate for a senator who serves on the nomination committee to express doubts, as McCain has done. It is not acceptable to label that individual grossly incompetent simply because of his duty to answer to the C-in-C, especially when the committee members are doing so to gain political leverage. |
Seriously? Do you actually read what you write, or do the words just travel straight from your ears to your fingers? Are you going to lead us to believe that you think there is a substantive difference between these two quotes?
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| [He] had not done a very good job in speaking out for some obvious things that weren't going right in Iraq. |
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And you'll need to explain why your assessment of the situation in Iraq has differed so radically from that of most observers and why your predictions of future success have been so unrealistically rosy
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| S&M wrote: |
voters vote on the basis of various perceptions that might have little or nothing to do with the party's stance toward them as a group, per se. Do you really think a third of all Jewish Americans would vote for Republicans if they felt the party was anti-Semitic?
...
So what does that prove? Get a grip. |
Nothing, except that you've obviously got a serious case of double standard. 2/3rds of the military voting GOP is somehow a sign that the Dems have disdain for the military. But you'll easily dismiss the 2/3rds of Jews, and 90% of blacks voting for the Dems as meaningless. Which is it? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: ... |
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| You have yet to participate n an intelligent and useful manner in any thread I've participated in. |
Well, there was a thread once where I had to correct the incorrect grammar rules you were putting forth, so I wouldn't characterize things as such.
Meanwhile, I wasn't referring to you. I seldom respond to your posts, for that matter. They're just too intelligent and useful for my tastes.
Now you shut up. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:38 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| You have yet to participate n an intelligent and useful manner in any thread I've participated in. |
Well, there was a thread once where I had to correct the incorrect grammar rules you were putting forth, so I wouldn't characterize things as such.
Meanwhile, I wasn't referring to you. I seldom respond to your posts, for that matter. They're just too intelligent and useful for my tastes.
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:58 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| You have yet to participate n an intelligent and useful manner in any thread I've participated in. |
Well, there was a thread once where I had to correct the incorrect grammar rules you were putting forth, so I wouldn't characterize things as such. |
Proof? I don't mind being wrong, so feel free to cut and paste.
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Meanwhile, I wasn't referring to you. I seldom respond to your posts, for that matter. They're just too intelligent and useful for my tastes.
Now you shut up. |
Ah. I see. So, you weren't referring to me, but it was my quote. Very well. See, one wanting to make a point about something would quote the comments they were referencing.... no?
Like I said... |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You have yet to participate n an intelligent and useful manner in any thread I've participated in. |
Well, there was a thread once where I had to correct the incorrect grammar rules you were putting forth, so I wouldn't characterize things as such.
Meanwhile, I wasn't referring to you. I seldom respond to your posts, for that matter. They're just too intelligent and useful for my tastes.
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You forgot the now you shut up part.
Now you shut up! |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
Nothing, except that you've obviously got a serious case of double standard. 2/3rds of the military voting GOP is somehow a sign that the Dems have disdain for the military. But you'll easily dismiss the 2/3rds of Jews, and 90% of blacks voting for the Dems as meaningless. Which is it? |
Regarding your statement as clipped above.
No one has claimed that the 'voters' hold a 'disdain'.
The finger is squarely pointed at the Democratic Leadership.
Without naming names; Kerry, Levin, Dean, Shumer and Hillary.Oh, did I say that out loud.
Look at this quote from the article.
"Rep. Ellen O. Tauscher, D-Calif., said Wednesday she thought Pace was guilty of a dereliction of duty because of his support for Bush's Iraq policy."
Guilty she said guilty the word guilty is a legal term not to be taken lightly , as in innocent until proven guilty, as in not even charged. I remember Nixon (dating myself) nearly got hung for saying Charles Manson was guilty.
edited to correct the missing " and ] in the quote thingy
These types of statements are scandalous, libelous, treacherous, scurrilous and slanderous.
Last edited by cbclark4 on Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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