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ilovebdt
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Location: Nr Seoul
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 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: Would it be Americans or Americans'? |
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I have been looking at this sentence my co-teacher gave me and I am not sure whether it is Americans or Americans' and if so why?
The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to ( Americans / Americans' ) toward cows
I am thinking Americans'.
What do you guys think?
ilovebdt |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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what you are missing is the object of possession. You're right, it could be Americans' = plural possessive.
The attitudes of Chinese people toward dogs are similar to Americans' attitudes toward cows.
EDIT: typos
Last edited by icnelly on Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BuHaoChi
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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....
Last edited by BuHaoChi on Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be Americans or Americans'? |
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| ilovebdt wrote: |
I have been looking at this sentence my co-teacher gave me and I am not sure whether it is Americans or Americans' and if so why?
The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to ( Americans / Americans' ) toward cows
I am thinking Americans'.
What do you guys think?
ilovebdt |
Didn't have time before, so here's so more:
The problem lies in the noun phrase (the attitude of Chinese people). It's only one attitude, so you need to try and match that in subject and predicate, and there are many many variations of this sentence:
1.The Chinese attitude toward dogs is similar to the American attitude toward cows.
2. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the American people's attitude toward cows.
3. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the attitude of American people toward cows. (longer, and a little redundant, but grammatical and is the closest form to the OP's original.)
EDIT: Typos
Last edited by icnelly on Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dogshed
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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What about:
driver's license
drivers license
drivers' license |
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K-in-C
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Heading somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: Grammar |
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| dogshed wrote: |
What about:
driver's license
drivers license
drivers' license |
I say the second one is correct. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| dogshed wrote: |
What about:
driver's license
drivers license
drivers' license |
All three are correct given the context in which they are used. E.G.
The driver's license could not be found. (referencing a singular person)
The drivers license is issued to those over 18. ('drivers' being used as an adjective modifying license)
The drivers' license were suspended because they were driving while intoxicated. (plural possessive i.e. more than one driver and the license belonging to each one and the belief that there is one specific license which is held by all of the drivers).
Hope this helps.
Me. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be Americans or Americans'? |
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| icnelly wrote: |
| ilovebdt wrote: |
I have been looking at this sentence my co-teacher gave me and I am not sure whether it is Americans or Americans' and if so why?
The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to ( Americans / Americans' ) toward cows
I am thinking Americans'.
What do you guys think?
ilovebdt |
Didn't have time before, so here's so more:
The problem lies in the noun phrase (the attitude of Chinese people). It's only one attitude, so you need to try and match that in subject and predicate, and there are many many variations of this sentence:
1.The Chinese attitude toward dogs is similar to the American attitude toward cows.
2. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the American people's attitude toward cows.
3. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the attitude of American people toward cows. (longer, and a little redundant, but grammatical and is the closest form to the OP's original.)
3. Chinese people's attitudes towards dogs are similar to American's attitudes toward cows. (a bit awkward) |
icnelly, your example #3 is ungrammatical, unless you are talking about one person named American. It should read: "Chinese people's attitudes toward dogs are similar to Americans' attitudes toward cows."
ilovebdt, you are right. It should be Americans', because it is posessive of a plural where there is already an s at the end.
The boy's hats = One boy's hats
The boys' hats = Several boys' hats
Similarly:
The American's attitude = One American's attitude
The Americans' attitude = Several Americans' attitude, or the attitude of Americans in general.
Cubanlord, you've got it mostly right, except in your last sentence.
| Cubanlord wrote: |
| The drivers' license were suspended because they were driving while intoxicated. |
This should read: "The drivers' licences ..."
Firstly (actually, this is for all of your sentences, not just the last one), licence should have two Cs. :Licence, instead of license.
Secondly, since it's impossible for several drivers to have only one licence that they share, context says that you'd need an s after licence to pluralize it. Although if it were possible for several drivers to share one drivers licence, then that would be correct. |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be Americans or Americans'? |
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[quote="littlelisa"]
| icnelly wrote: |
| ilovebdt wrote: |
I have been looking at this sentence my co-teacher gave me and I am not sure whether it is Americans or Americans' and if so why?
The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to ( Americans / Americans' ) toward cows
I am thinking Americans'.
What do you guys think?
ilovebdt |
Didn't have time before, so here's so more:
The problem lies in the noun phrase (the attitude of Chinese people). It's only one attitude, so you need to try and match that in subject and predicate, and there are many many variations of this sentence:
1.The Chinese attitude toward dogs is similar to the American attitude toward cows.
2. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the American people's attitude toward cows.
3. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the attitude of American people toward cows. (longer, and a little redundant, but grammatical and is the closest form to the OP's original.)
3. Chinese people's attitudes towards dogs are similar to American's attitudes toward cows. (a bit awkward
icnelly, your example #3 is ungrammatical, unless you are talking about one person named American. It should read: "Chinese people's attitudes toward dogs are similar to Americans' attitudes toward cows."
ilovebdt, you are right. It should be Americans', because it is posessive of a plural where there is already an s at the end.) |
What about collective ideas??? It is not ungrammatical, it is a solecism perhaps.
Their attitude toward dogs is fine...
The attitude of Americans = one attitude held by more than one person of a group in this example is not ungrammatical; it's unusual but correct I'm pretty sure. I think this construction is odd, but fine, especially since it is a noun modified by a prepositional phrase and not just a plural possesive combination.
Anyone elses thoughts?
EDIT: qoutes |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Firstly (actually, this is for all of your sentences, not just the last one), licence should have two Cs. :Licence, instead of license. |
This depends where you are from, you may have mixed up the old queen's english with american english both acceptable. Normally licence is used as the noun while license is used as a verb, however they have become a little interchangeable |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: Re: Would it be Americans or Americans'? |
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| icnelly wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| icnelly wrote: |
| ilovebdt wrote: |
I have been looking at this sentence my co-teacher gave me and I am not sure whether it is Americans or Americans' and if so why?
The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to ( Americans / Americans' ) toward cows
I am thinking Americans'.
What do you guys think?
ilovebdt |
Didn't have time before, so here's so more:
The problem lies in the noun phrase (the attitude of Chinese people). It's only one attitude, so you need to try and match that in subject and predicate, and there are many many variations of this sentence:
1.The Chinese attitude toward dogs is similar to the American attitude toward cows.
2. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the American people's attitude toward cows.
3. The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the attitude of American people toward cows. (longer, and a little redundant, but grammatical and is the closest form to the OP's original.)
3. Chinese people's attitudes towards dogs are similar to American's attitudes toward cows. (a bit awkward |
icnelly, your example #3 is ungrammatical, unless you are talking about one person named American. It should read: "Chinese people's attitudes toward dogs are similar to Americans' attitudes toward cows."
ilovebdt, you are right. It should be Americans', because it is posessive of a plural where there is already an s at the end.) |
What about collective ideas??? It is not ungrammatical, it is a solecism perhaps.
Their attitude toward dogs is fine...
The attitude of Americans = one attitude held by more than one person of a group in this example is not ungrammatical; it's unusual but correct I'm pretty sure. I think this construction is odd, but fine, especially since it is a noun modified by a prepositional phrase and not just a plural possesive combination.
Anyone elses thoughts?
EDIT: qoutes |
Hm? I think you are agreeing with me now. The attitude of Americans.. or the Americans' attitude is the same thing.
The attitude of American's would be considered as ungrammatical as the American's attitude [Edit: I mean when referring to more than one American].
Last edited by littlelisa on Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:23 am; edited 2 times in total |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| blackjack wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Firstly (actually, this is for all of your sentences, not just the last one), licence should have two Cs. :Licence, instead of license. |
This depends where you are from, you may have mixed up the old queen's english with american english both acceptable. Normally licence is used as the noun while license is used as a verb, however they have become a little interchangeable |
I know that's the way it works for Brittish/Canadian English. I double checked with M-W to be sure about American. It lists only licence. *shrug*
This could be a regional thing, though, in which case I am wrong. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| blackjack wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Firstly (actually, this is for all of your sentences, not just the last one), licence should have two Cs. :Licence, instead of license. |
This depends where you are from, you may have mixed up the old queen's english with american english both acceptable. Normally licence is used as the noun while license is used as a verb, however they have become a little interchangeable |
I know that's the way it works for Brittish/Canadian English. I double checked with M-W to be sure about American. It lists only licence. *shrug*
This could be a regional thing, though, in which case I am wrong. |
You shouldn't be so presumptuous as to state that something is a certain way and that there is NO OTHER WAY (e.g. 'licence' vs. 'license'). In the United States or as others know it as SAE, 'license' is what is used. You shouldn't be such a prescriptivist unless you have the foundation and education from which to back-up your statements.
Furthermore, you shouldn't use adverbs as transitions.
Additionally, you are also wrong in your 'drivers licenses' statement. We have become accustomed to hearing the word 'drivers' that it would seem unfamiliar to use 'driver' when in combination with 'license'. Therefore, we use 'drivers'. In further support that you are WRONG, even though it is semantically incorrect (as you have stated), it is syntactically correct (as I have stated). in the case of 'drivers license', 'drivers' (the noun) is functioning as an adjective. Or, you could take the compound noun approach.
Take the following word for example:
Sunday Night Concert Series - Would you say that 'sunday, night, and concert' all function as adjectives to the header 'series'? In reality, this is one word. Just like global warming, master of ceremonies, etc. (fromkin, rodman, and hyman, 2007). SO, as you see, it can be both. Check out An Introduction to Language.
You should really check your references before you jump out and correcting someone. It can REALLY make you look like a...... |
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Freaka
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Would it be Americans or Americans'? |
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| ilovebdt wrote: |
| The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to ( Americans / Americans' ) toward cows. |
It's Americans' but I agree with the others who noted that it's a poorly constructed sentence.
The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to that of the Americans' toward cows.
or
The attitude of Chinese people toward dogs is similar to the Americans' attitude toward cows.
In my opinion, either of the two above sentences would sound better. |
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Freaka
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| blackjack wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Firstly (actually, this is for all of your sentences, not just the last one), licence should have two Cs. :Licence, instead of license. |
This depends where you are from, you may have mixed up the old queen's english with american english both acceptable. Normally licence is used as the noun while license is used as a verb, however they have become a little interchangeable |
I know that's the way it works for Brittish/Canadian English. I double checked with M-W to be sure about American. It lists only licence. *shrug*
This could be a regional thing, though, in which case I am wrong. |
As an American, I've always spelled it "license." However, it can also be spelled "licence." Neither spelling is incorrect and both are acceptable.
Some other examples:
dialog and dialogue
defense and defence
traveling and travelling
criticize and criticise |
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