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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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EFLTrainer wrote:
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| Fact is, much like most other real conspiracies, it takes time for things to come out. There are facts that are utterly irrefutable |
Oh, look, regicide has a new sock. Bet your favorite TV show was The Twilight Zone too. Oh, wait, no, the X-Files. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| BLT No-Brainer wrote: |
| Prove it, college boy... |
BLT. If you want to get in my face again with your chronic, daily, hostile, sneering personal attacks, then let us do it and get it over with. Let us get right back in each other's face again.
I dare you. Coward. Hiding behind internet anonymity. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
Prove it, college boy. |
duuuuddeee. Camon.
The film in question, Midnight Express. I lived in Turkey for a while. It is a deeply divided society. If you want to unite a room of people, mention that movie. It makes the Turks livid. It brings up a very powerful reaction. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher and Stevie, Bergen and McCarthy
I just can't believe that you two don't ever see your own hypocricy and the logical fallacy of most of your arguements. This is a perfect example.
You would cry out for the free speech of Rushdie and against that terrible Fatwa. Yet, you say that Stone has no right to both have a message and entertain. You'd pronounce your own fatwa on him, if you had the power.
Stand up and be consistent in your arguements. As I stated many times. On all issues, you both revolve around the same axis, irregardless of the contradictions ultimately spun -- that pole is Western exceptionalism and a view of history that parades big men and strong men and a righteous leadership.
Posers. Stone is a consummate artist and has given us "history". You, nor anyone else has any ownership on this term, that reality. You guys are dead wrong on this. All art has a moral imperative -- Auden. Why can't you figure it out?
DD |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Posers. DD |
Ahhh. Tell me again about malthusian prognastics... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| I just can't believe... |
Ddeubel: different people see the same thing from different perspectives and reach divergent conclusions -- especially in art, religion, and politics.
I cannot believe that this comes to you as news. And I do not mean this sarcastically in the least. In any case, surely you can imagine better ways to exchange views with others than to assert that you are right and they wrong. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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ddeubel wrote:
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| You would cry out for the free speech of Rushdie and against that terrible Fatwa. Yet, you say that Stone has no right to both have a message and entertain. You'd pronounce your own fatwa on him, if you had the power. |
Show me where I said that Stone has no right to make these trash films, let alone be punished? I said he has an ethical obligation to try to be accurate if he is going to portray his films as historical. Are you really that obtuse?
Gopher:
Good to have you back. The tag team is in the ring again. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Show me where I said that Stone has no right to make these trash films, let alone be punished? I said he has an ethical obligation to try to be accurate if he is going to portray his films as historical. Are you really that obtuse? |
He has NO ethical obligation other than to his art and the film. I won't go into the long side of this topic. Read Rushdie's 1,000 days in a balloon. If I can recommend him for anything, it is as a cinematic genius. His writings about film are of the highest order, as to what he says about the obligations of the artist. But if you want a short version, read some Rilke.
Your labeling him as a "leftist nutjob", is just sour grapes. He can produce the films he likes, Turks or you be damned. We need more people to turn the soil of the mind and get us thinking about these things in ways other than gross sterotypes and John Waynisms....
Gopher --
I'm not right, just pointing out what I see as bias.
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ddeubel: at least we are not at absolutely opposite ends on this and I can agree with some of what you write on this thread. That being said...
| ddeubel wrote: |
| I'm not right, just pointing out what I see as bias... |
Such criticism presupposes something unbiased must exist. Otherwise the point is meaningless.
I enjoyed one or two of Stone's films. He seems to have made Richard M. Nixon more human and less demon-like than most others would have. This notwithstanding, Stone's military-industrial complex, conspiracy-theory, America-is-evil agenda seems clear enough to me.
Everyone I have ever read who began their books like Mike Davis's Late Victorian Holocausts -- "this is a partisan indictment and I remain unapologetic about it," or something very much like that in its opening pages -- enjoyed immense credibility with me. Authors ought to be up front with their audiences with respect to their purposes. Neither Stone nor Moore do this, however. And the latter craftitly evades the issue with his "this-is-just-satire-and-not-really-political" disclaimer. Yet I am certain you can agree with me that neither Stone nor Moore are in the business of producing art for art's sake... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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And the latter craftitly evades the issue with his "this is just satire and not really political" disclaimer.
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Yeah, I always thought that was rather shifty of Moore, to claim, when cornered, that the 9-11 film was the equivalent of a political cartoon, and not meant to be taken literally. Because that wasn't how the movie presented itself.
As for Midnight Express...
Pauline Kael, who didn't like the film, made the observation that at the time that Billy Hayes was arrested, the USA was pressuring countries around the world to clamp down on drug smuggling. Thus, it was rather hypocritical for Stone and the director Alan Parker to try and whip up symapthy for a poor American boy trapped in a third world prison for drug smuggling.
That said, I do like the film, artistically. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: DIRECTOR OLIVER STONE ADMITS TO MAKING RACIST FILM |
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Yay! I haven't had a reason to trot this out in a while:
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| ARRR! LIBERALS! GARR! *DROOL* RAGGLE! |
Neo-con politics: Deep. |
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