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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgeezer wrote: |
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End the occupation by stating that they forswear military action against Israel if Isreal withdraws. Why ought Israel withdraw without any promise from the other side that they won't attack? Doesn't sound like any kind of big concession from the Palestinian side.
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I agree Joo, that Whoever is running the Palestinian Authority should insist that actions against Israel cease.....
The problem is that, Israel will never leave the West Bank...They've come close to leaving in the past, but the erection of permanent settlements over the last 15 years points to the conclusion that they are THERE FOR THE LONG HAUL....
That's what is driving the Palestinians crazy....Also it is evident that Israel plans to keep a permanent hold on Jerusalem further fanning this un-fixable problem... |
Bill Clintons peace plan.
| Quote: |
Clinton, who tried but failed to make peace in the Middle East the legacy of his presidency, decried the current cycle of violence in Israel.
"I don't think there is a military solution to this," he said. "But I know there's not a terrorist solution to it."
Clinton also said he disagreed with President Bush that peace can be achieved only when Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is gone from power.
Nevertheless, he said it is important for the United States to remain involved because "Israelis believe that America is the only big country that cares if they live or die."
The ex-president said the best solution to the Middle East conflict is an interim settlement that would "establish a Palestinian state now."
But he stressed that the creation of such a state must be preceded by security assurances for Israel and a timetable to resolve other issues.
Clinton said Arafat made a "disastrous mistake" by turning down past peace proposals that would have given the Palestinian leader control of 97 percent of the West Bank.
Yet, Clinton said, "There is reason for hope.
"I think this will be resolved on the terms the Palestinians walked away from." |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Big_Bird: nowhere in your scolding of BJWD, above, do I see any recognition that the Palestinians, occupied or not, have played their part in making their own bed.
You also go far beyond your earlier, alleged stance: that you merely wanted to balance the pro-Israeli press by getting "the other side's" worldview and story out. Here you merely fault and blame Tel Aviv for each and every thing.
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To me, the Palestinians are just jetsom and flotsam floating on the tide. They have no control over their destiny, whatever they do. In the initial years of the occupation, they did not resort to violence. The IDF found it very easy to control them. There was no organised resistance. Much good it did them. Only, sadly, when they did resort to terrorism did anyone start taking notice of them. Up until then, the Israelis had had a free hand. Then, in the early 80s, when Arafat decided to eschew violence for diplomacy, the Israeli government panicked and did everything they could to get the PLO to violate the ceasefire. The PLO held strong. They were trying to change their tact and employ diplomacy, but moderation in your enemies is a very inconvenient problem - it puts you in the very uncomfortable position of having to find new excuses not to negotiate. So the Israelis felt forced to find a pretext for war. They finally found a pretext to break the ceasefire with the PLO, when another terrorist organisation led by Abu Nidal (in fact a rival of the PLO, that some say was in the pay of Israel) tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. The war in Lebanon was openly hailed in Israel at the time as a war to keep the West Bank. Later we had the Oslo talks. Initially these seemed very promising, as it was assumed negotations would take place along the lines of 'land for peace,' i.e. giving back the territories in return for the Palestinians agreeing to peace. However, it was a joke. The Israelis doubled their settlement builing during this time, and made life even worse for the occupied population. All the time, a quizling PLO were assisting them, controlling and enabling the dispossession of their people in return for gaining their own priviledges and lining their own pockets. The ordinary Palestinian became more impoverished, and the Israelis tightened their stranglehold on the territories. The Olso agreements were, frankly, an absolute disaster for the Palestinians.
Basically, the Palestinians are damned whatever they do. I laugh when you say they made their own bed. That suggests they had some kind of power, however small to affect the outcome of this occupation. They don't. They can play nice and just lay back as they are f***ed in the bottom, or the can fight back and be f***ed a bit more roughly up the bottom. And those are their only 2 choices.
While Israel is backed by the world's only superpower, they can do as they please.
| Quote: |
| The Palestinians are just nice guys who finish last, according to you. Some of us dispute that. |
Well I say bollocks to that. I don't think the Palestinians are any nicer than anyone else. But pretending they are in a bed of their own making is a bloody joke.
The Palestinians are like a small toddler, trapped in a room and putting up a fight against a huge adult man, 6 foot 5 and weighing 300 pounds. They haven't got a cat in hells chance of changing the outcome, if the big guy wants to steal their candy bar. Nothing they can do will change the outcome. And believe me, the Israelis never had any intention of not going after that candy bar.
I also have to wonder how you, Gopher, would have reacted if you were a Palestinian under occupation.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
They kept dragging their feet when FATAH told them they must recognise Israel and honour the past agreements. |
Nor should they. The past agreements concerning Olso were a bloody disgrace, and Arafat shouldn't have agreed to them in the first place. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Arafat should have got less than Oslo. He was insane to renege, but I doubt if he ever intemded to accept. For some reasons the Palestinians see, to think that any agreement is just an excuse to ask for me.
Typical Islamic perfidy.
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
They kept dragging their feet when FATAH told them they must recognise Israel and honour the past agreements. |
Nor should they. The past agreements concerning Olso were a bloody disgrace, and Arafat shouldn't have agreed to them in the first place. |
I think the Arab-Israeli situation is a very complicated one. The majority of North Americans know very little about it. The slant is generally vis-a-vis the Jewish voices who are for covering up for Israel's actions past and present, while excluding Jewish voices on the Left. There was a survey done in Canada by a Jewish group that showed that Canadians who felt more educated about the region had a more negative view of Israel than those who didn't. This also applies to Jews who learn more and more about the conflict. They still support Israel, and its right to exist, and condemn terrorists, but they see an injustice has been committed in the past and needs to be rectified. Also, an injustice has been committed against the people by the likes of Yasser Arafat.
As far as Yasser Arafat and Oslo, he didn't consult the Palestinian parliament, and he signed. He was desperate after Desert Storm..
He was too cozy with Saddam Hussein which perturbed the Gulf states that used to send him checks. Israel knew that and wanted to contain the Intifada. Oslo was not good for either Israelis or Palestinians.
I suppose Arafat saw it as a starting point and so did the Israelis, but it was a poor agreement. I pray for peace for the people down there...
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem... Yerushalem, Orshaleem, Al Qodos, the city of peace or King Salem depending on your version of history... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Only Israel places roadblocks before any possible settlement...?
What about organizations like Jibril's? What about the Syrian govt who backs them? What about other Arab organizations like Hezbollah?
| Wikipedia wrote: |
[Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine -- General Command] was founded in 1968 as a Syrian-backed splinter group from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). It was - and still is - headed by Secretary-General Ahmed Jibril, a former military officer in the Syrian Army who had been one of the PFLP's early leaders. The PFLP-GC declared that its primary focus would be military, not political, complaining that the PFLP had been devoting too much time and resources to Marxist philosophizing.
Although the group was initially a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), it always opposed Yassir Arafat and opposes any political settlement with Israel; for this reason, it has never participated in the peace process. The PFLP-GC left the PLO in 1974 to join the Rejectionist Front, protesting what they saw as the PLO's move towards an accommodation with Israel in the Arafat-backed Ten Point Program of the Palestinian National Council (PNC). Unlike most of the organizations involved in the Rejectionist Front, the PFLP-GC never resumed its role within the PLO. |
| Wikipedia wrote: |
The Rejectionist Front (جبهة الرفض) or Front of the Palestinian Forces Rejecting Solutions of Surrender (جبهة القوى الفلسطينية الرافضة للحلول الإستسلامية) was a political coalition formed in 1974 by radical Palestinian factions who rejected the Ten Point Program adopted by the Palestine Liberation Organization in its 12th Palestinian National Congress (PNC) session.
While affirming the PLO's commitment to fight Israel, the Fatah-sponsored Ten Point Program authorized the PLO to "establish [an] independent combatant national authority for the people over every part of Palestinian territory that is liberated", which was regarded by many Palestinians as a possible first step towards a two-state proposal. At the same PNC session, the ultimate goal of the PLO was defined as a democratic bi-national state, i.e. granting Jewish and Arab citizens the same rights in Palestine.
This prompted several of the most militant Palestinian factions to leave the PLO in protest and form the Rejectionist Front. They were mostly far-left organizations, some of them dominated by Arab states fearing a Palestinan-Israeli rapprochement. The Front was never an operative organization, but rather a statement of position; however, it was loudly backed by Iraq.
While the involved factions continued to advocate a hardline policy towards Israel, most of them eventually rejoined the PLO, for example in 1977, when the Steadfastness and Confrontation Front was announced. But tensions remained, and the Rejectionist Front or similar initiatives were revived virtually every time Arafat made a conciliatory gesture towards Israel. The most serious rift was in 1988, when the PLO recognized Israel, and most of the left wing of the PLO again broke out, backed by Syria. |
As for this...
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| The Palestinians are like a small toddler, trapped in a room and putting up a fight against a huge adult man, 6 foot 5 and weighing 300 pounds. |
Disagree.
But I do better understand your worldview on this, even if I do not join you in apologizing for or hero-worshipping them. At least it explains your positions on these issues. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see BB hero worshipping. She is only seeing things as they are and seeing the "logic" behind these men. They don't just appear out of nowhere. She is also taking off the rose coloured glasses we see our own / the west's / Israel's actions through.
Finally, I've read something that sums up the current state of affairs in Palestine. So farcical that Fatah is now heralded as "moderate". Makes me want to spit. We forget the corruption, the violence and the dictatorial nature of this group of men. Abbas is and will now be seen by his people as an American dupe. That is a great danger to the whole peace process , in total. That we get news reports seeming to reveal there is a legitimate govt, new members etc......is just absurd. It is a fiction, all of Abbas' making, o my god. Anyways, read the article below for a very thorough accounting of the situation and guilt all around.
| Quote: |
Palestinian incompetence, Western hypocrisy
By Rami G. Khouri Published: June 18, 2007
BEIRUT:
It's hard to know who appears more ludicrous and despicable, the Palestinian Fatah and Hamas leaderships allowing their gunmen to fight it out on the streets of Gaza and the West Bank, or an American administration saying it supports the "moderates" in Palestine who want to negotiate peace with Israel. |
and ends...
| Quote: |
Two things are needed to get the Palestinians out of this tragic fighting pit they have allowed themselves to become.
The first is to acknowledge that they reached this low point through a combination of their own pedestrian politics and the low-grade morality of many others.
The second is to engage the Palestinians primarily on the basis of their own rights and needs, rather than only as the expedient instruments of Israeli demands and American fantasies. If not, what you see is what you get. |
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/18/opinion/edkhouri.php
DD |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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That Israel wlll keep some of he settlements is a forgone conclusion.
First, when they were forced into the 1967 war to protect their very existance - the cry was then and still is, drive the Jewa into the sea. Until all of the Islamic world renounces the extermination of Israel and gives some demonstration of their sincerity Israel must hang on.
Proving their sincerity means, among other things, getting their own fringe idiots under control.
Second, the Ilsamic world must understand their is no such thing as a free war. Everytime they start one they must lose something.
Then finish the wall and basically hermetically seal Israel ofd from the erdtbank. Finish the wall. The perhaps after 50 or so years of peace, some trust can be established. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
There was a survey done in Canada by a Jewish group that showed that Canadians who felt more educated about the region had a more negative view of Israel than those who didn't. |
This is very much what happened to me. I spent some time researching the Lebanese war of the 80s, which led me to an interest in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I started reading about it from various sources, starting with the zionist point of view and going through the spectrum, getting to supposedly disinterested scholars and intending to read from an Arab perspective. As it turned out, I put off reading any Arab scholars, including Edward Said, because I was finding that I was becoming so appalled by what I was learning, I was afraid of becoming too biased in favour of the arabs. But some things are just wrong. For example, I can't think how any decent person could justify what Hitler did in the 30s and 40s, I can't stomach the ruthlessness and excesses of Mao, and I can't justify what Mugabe is doing to his people right now, nor what the white South Africans did to the native inhabitants. Some things are just not right. And the illegal and quite brutal occupation of Palestinian territories is one such situation. The more I learnt, the less I was able to rationalise it and justify it. I have spoken to others who had this same experience. And indeed, when I talk to people who support Israel, I find they generally know very little. Even Israelis I have spent time with seem to know very little. I have spoken to Israelis in their 20s and 30s who had never even heard of Sabra and Chattila, which astonished me. I have also spoken with some very fascinating and knowledgeable Israelis who do know a great deal about the situation, and they admit they have a great deal of trouble justifying what is being done in their name.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| This also applies to Jews who learn more and more about the conflict. |
At one point, I was in contact with a lot of Israelis, and I had a jewish Canadian friend who loved to hang out with me, but would never meet up with me if she knew I was hanging out with any of my Israeli friends. She told me she couldn't stand to hear them talk about politics. She said as a youngster, she'd been sent to jewish youth camps where they were generally brainwashed with zionist propaganda, and as an adult she'd learnt more and more about the situation and come to very much reject what she'd been taught. She couldn't bear to hear the way Israelis talked about arabs, for one thing. I never talked much to her about it, but I began to understand why she felt that way. I felt very uncomfortable when Israelis talked about Palestinians. I was quite astounded by their ignorance of them and their experiences. It reminded me very much of listening to South Africans talk about blacks when I lived in London. I told myself that if I were brought up an Israeli, no doubt I'd have the same attitudes. But my Canadian friend felt that as a jew, she should be more outspoken, and got tired of all the conflict. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Big_Bird: nowhere in your scolding of BJWD, above, do I see any recognition that the Palestinians, occupied or not, have played their part in making their own bed.
You also go far beyond your earlier, alleged stance: that you merely wanted to balance the pro-Israeli press by getting "the other side's" worldview and story out. Here you merely fault and blame Tel Aviv for each and every thing.
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To me, the Palestinians are just jetsom and flotsam floating on the tide. They have no control over their destiny, whatever they do. In the initial years of the occupation, they did not resort to violence. The IDF found it very easy to control them. There was no organised resistance. Much good it did them. Only, sadly, when they did resort to terrorism did anyone start taking notice of them. Up until then, the Israelis had had a free hand. Then, in the early 80s, when Arafat decided to eschew violence for diplomacy, the Israeli government panicked and did everything they could to get the PLO to violate the ceasefire. The PLO held strong. They were trying to change their tact and employ diplomacy, but moderation in your enemies is a very inconvenient problem - it puts you in the very uncomfortable position of having to find new excuses not to negotiate. So the Israelis felt forced to find a pretext for war. They finally found a pretext to break the ceasefire with the PLO, when another terrorist organisation led by Abu Nidal (in fact a rival of the PLO, that some say was in the pay of Israel) tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. The war in Lebanon was openly hailed in Israel at the time as a war to keep the West Bank. Later we had the Oslo talks. Initially these seemed very promising, as it was assumed negotations would take place along the lines of 'land for peace,' i.e. giving back the territories in return for the Palestinians agreeing to peace. However, it was a joke. The Israelis doubled their settlement builing during this time, and made life even worse for the occupied population. All the time, a quizling PLO were assisting them, controlling and enabling the dispossession of their people in return for gaining their own priviledges and lining their own pockets. The ordinary Palestinian became more impoverished, and the Israelis tightened their stranglehold on the territories. The Olso agreements were, frankly, an absolute disaster for the Palestinians.
Basically, the Palestinians are damned whatever they do. I laugh when you say they made their own bed. That suggests they had some kind of power, however small to affect the outcome of this occupation. They don't. They can play nice and just lay back as they are f***ed in the bottom, or the can fight back and be f***ed a bit more roughly up the bottom. And those are their only 2 choices.
While Israel is backed by the world's only superpower, they can do as they please.
| Quote: |
| The Palestinians are just nice guys who finish last, according to you. Some of us dispute that. |
Well I say bollocks to that. I don't think the Palestinians are any nicer than anyone else. But pretending they are in a bed of their own making is a bloody joke.
The Palestinians are like a small toddler, trapped in a room and putting up a fight against a huge adult man, 6 foot 5 and weighing 300 pounds. They haven't got a cat in hells chance of changing the outcome, if the big guy wants to steal their candy bar. Nothing they can do will change the outcome. And believe me, the Israelis never had any intention of not going after that candy bar.
I also have to wonder how you, Gopher, would have reacted if you were a Palestinian under occupation. |
You are a defeatest!
It's always convenient for certain people to heap accusations on Israel.
(Yasser Arafat) |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Arafat should have got less than Oslo. He was insane to renege, but I doubt if he ever intemded to accept. For some reasons the Palestinians see, to think that any agreement is just an excuse to ask for me.
Typical Islamic perfidy.
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Arafat was Christian.
He had no reason to "ask for you". (dude get a new keyboard) |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| contrarian wrote: |
Arafat should have got less than Oslo. He was insane to renege, but I doubt if he ever intemded to accept. For some reasons the Palestinians see, to think that any agreement is just an excuse to ask for me.
Typical Islamic perfidy.
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Arafat was Christian.
He had no reason to "ask for you". (dude get a new keyboard) |
Arafat was married to a Christian Arab, but I've never heard that he was one! I'd check that out if I were you!  |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The Palestinians are like a small toddler, trapped in a room and putting up a fight against a huge adult man, 6 foot 5 and weighing 300 pounds. They haven't got a cat in hells chance of changing the outcome, if the big guy wants to steal their candy bar. Nothing they can do will change the outcome. And believe me, the Israelis never had any intention of not going after that candy bar. |
ok bb you take the cake as being more clueless than DD...I didn't think it was possible but it was.....
Nobody can read this and EVER thing that you are impartial....EVER |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Nice picture show, Gopher. But let's put it into perspective, shall we? If you are an Israeli, the chances are you will only see the following on the television. Unless of course you are on active duty participating in the illegal occupation of the West Bank...
Now, while few Isrealis will come face to face with a gentleman such as that shown above, and have only ever seen his like on the 6:30 news, practically every Palestinian will have seen armed Israeli soldiers.
Perhaps they've had to pass by gentlemen such as these, on their way to the shops or school:
Passing through checkpoints are an unavoidable reality for many Palestinians. They may have to queue for hours and hours to get to work, get to a hospital, or visit their sick mother in a nearby village, maybe everday. I knew a Canadian guy who spent time travelling all over the Middle East and much of Africa. He spent time working and living in Israel, and then out of curiousity, decided to spend some time in the West Bank. He was neither arab nor muslim. He had dark hair, brown eyes an a suntan however, and was regularly held up at gunpoint when he had to go through the checkpoint to get to his work. Young teenage boys would give him attitude, sometimes kicking or punching him, one time spitting at him. They could, they had a uniform and a gun. This was in the late 90s, before the current intifada. He hated it. Imagine how you'd feel it was more than just a few months of your life, rather years and years...
Israeli children only get to see armed Palestinian men on TV. I bet these Palestinian children wished the only armed Israelis they saw were on the telly:
Having a medical emergency? Need urgent life saving treatment? Young teenaged boys will determine whether or not you are allowed through the checkpoint and on to the hospital. There are many true stories of ambulances being denied passage resulting in horrific consequences.
Think you've got nothing to be concerned about if you are a valued and respected non-combatant member of the community? Think again:
| Quote: |
| The arresting of Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi at Aram Checkpoint. He is the President of the Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees as well as director of the Health, Development, Information and Policy Institute (HDIP) in Ramallah, Palestine |
Do you have images of Palestinian tanks regularly rolling through the streets of Haifa and Tel Aviv?
Fancy being faced with this as you make your way to the shops or your child's school.
Plenty of sad tales of civillians being killed by these tanks by the way. The last one I read was of a young child cycling on their way home from the shops.
The picture above shows a Palestinian woman asking Israeli soldiers for permission to seek medical care at the nearby Arabcare hospital.
Now, Gopher, do you have an photos of Palestinians flying their f16s over densely populated residential areas? Perhaps firing off a missile or two into the home of an Israeli resistance leader? Hopefully not killing too many innocent by standers.
Imagine you are sleeping at home with your young family and one of these flies over your house. How do you comfort your frightened and traumatised children?
A few f16s flying over your neighbourhood might cheer your mood, eh?
And here's some Israeli artillery to end the show. These types of weapons have brought death and misery to quite a few unfortunate civvies:
Let's not forget who is occupying who. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Arafat was a Muslim. He was part of the al Husseini family. Haj Amin sl Husseini was the Mufti of Jerusalem before WWII. He tried to revolt against the British and ran for Germany. He spent the war in Nazi Germany helping the Holocaust planners and raising Bosnian solders fro the SS.
Al Husseini was Arafat's uncle.
Right now the Palestinians are killing each other off, Committing national suicide.
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