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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Steve wrote:
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Carter was naive enough to believe that the Ayatollah Khomeini, who was in exile in Najaf, Iraq and then Paris would be more enlightened than the Shah and work for human rights and democratic uplift. His administration actually facilitated the ayatollah's return to Iran and provided it with funding until the hostage crisis.
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Steve:
I've heard this argument before, from leftists. Of course, instead of saying "Jimmy Carter put Khomeini in power because he was stupid enough to think that Khomeini was a liberal", they say "the Americans put Khomeini in power because they wanted to oppress the Iranian people."
I'm not neccessarily doubting this argument(whichever way it is spun), because I don't know much about America's diplomatic actions during the Iranian revolution. Would you be able to link to an article that discusses this? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Whoa, "pusillanimous" - now, yer gonna send ME to the dictionary, lol ... okay, I've heard of the word, but I'd have to go look to see if it applies here, haha.
Hey, sorry, I called you pompous before, although I sort of DO think that using a word like "pusillanimous" on a message board just might qualify as ... hey, seriously, Kuros, you're one of the few on the other side I've always respected and judged a worthy adversary. Okay, I probably took a cheap shot, and I might be doing so now. But criticizing Carter on what YOU might think are dubious facets of personality also qualifies as cheap shot, sorry to say.
Shake hands?
It's not exactly true that every ex-president has involved himself in humanitarian work, by the way. If Nixon did, it's news to me. Not sure what Reagan was up to besides building his presidential library, same for LBJ. Maybe you know more than me about those guys, and maybe I'm wrong.
Jimmy Carter, pompous? I doubt the word "pusillanimous" has ever left his lips ... haha.
Smiles.
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:03 am Post subject: |
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Bobster wrote:
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| Jimmy Carter, pompous? I doubt the word "pusillanimous" has ever left his lips |
No, maybe not, but 'pus' has certainly formed on those lips from the cancer spread by his well-intentioned but poorly conceived remarks.
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| Carter? He picked up a hammer and started building houses for people who didn't have any. Yeah, that's pretty pompous and self-righteous, alright ... |
Yes, and "if I had a hammer, I'd sing it in the morning" too.
Let me clue you in, Jim-Bob. A few years before he won the Nobel Prize for Peace, Carter was interviewed on 60 Minutes and said in effect that he felt he deserved the prize and complained about not receiving it sooner. Now if that isn't egotistical I don't know what is.
Furthermore, Carter has reveled in his self-appointed role as America's president of conscience. Never mind that even the Clinton Administration tried to keep him at arm's length, limiting his appearances at the Democratic conventions and his solo diplomacy to a disastrous visit to North Korea.
Carter's zeal is almost missionary--not surprising given that his own mother was a missionary.
I might accept the claim that he has worked tirelessly on behalf of peace if he received continuous bipartisan support for his efforts, but he has not. Carter is trying to make an unofficial second term of a presidency from his retirement.
And whats wrong with Ford and Reagan leaving politics? I'd say that shows that they believe in leaving well enough alone. Carter, on the other hand, is a meddler whose public statements like the one recently in Ireland contradict if not outright defy current foreign policy positions. In this arena he's no different from Jesse Jackson, who's never held a political office, can barely speak standard English, has never had his own church and yet presumes to believe he can "reach" dictators like Castro.
Finally, and on a personal note, I'd like to say yet again that my own parents were stuck in Tehran in the year months preceding the hostage crisis. They lived with the educated Iranian middle class in a northern suburb. The word had gotten out that there was now an American president in office who was sympathetic to the ayatollahs and these people feared he would manipulate Iranian power brokering, which of course Carter did. They were not in the main happy with the Shah but dreaded the prospect of an Islamic regime.
Proof enough for this cop that Carter needs his ears boxed. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Bobster wrote:
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| Jimmy Carter, pompous? I doubt the word "pusillanimous" has ever left his lips |
No, maybe not, but 'pus' has certainly formed on those lips from the cancer spread by his well-intentioned but poorly conceived remarks. |
You have such a beautiful mind. May I kiss it? No?
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| Carter? He picked up a hammer and started building houses for people who didn't have any. Yeah, that's pretty pompous and self-righteous, alright ... |
Yes, and "if I had a hammer, I'd sing it in the morning" too. |
Whatever, dude. The world's a little better now because he picked up a hammer, and because his example likely influenced other people to do the same. Easy to give money, but time out of our lives can never be replaced. (By the way, you got the lyrics wrong, and i hate that song, too.)
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| Let me clue you in, Jim-Bob. A few years before he won the Nobel Prize for Peace, Carter was interviewed on 60 Minutes and said in effect that he felt he deserved the prize and complained about not receiving it sooner. Now if that isn't egotistical I don't know what is. |
I'm interested. Find me a link. I'd like to know the story behind that. If it's true, it's probably out there on the net and not hard to find. Unless, you're just talking out of your donkey, of course.
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| And whats wrong with Ford and Reagan leaving politics? |
Who said anything about that? I just said I don't recall them being heavily involved in humanitarian work after leaving office, and Kuros made the claim that every ex-president does. Maybe he's right and I'm wrong. He made the claim, like the one you did just now Jimmy saying he deserved the Nobel ...
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| I'd say that shows that they believe in leaving well enough alone. Carter, on the other hand, is a meddler whose public statements like the one recently in Ireland contradict if not outright defy current foreign policy positions. |
He's a private citizen, get it? He can say what he wants, when and where he wants, just like you. Only, when he does it, he shows his face to the world, lets his name and rep get attached to it, so that anonymous losers all over the internet can take cheap shots. Do you see any difference at all in this? Because I sure do.
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| In this arena he's no different from Jesse Jackson, who's never held a political office, can barely speak standard English, has never had his own church and yet presumes to believe he can "reach" dictators like Castro |
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Your racism is starting to show ... Jesse's talk is very like cadences of his mentor, M L King, and perfectly standard in the neighborhood he came from, though far removed from the young kids are talking nowadays. You show up in that part of town, YOU'RE the one speaking non-standard.
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| Finally, and on a personal note, I'd like to say yet again that my own parents were stuck in Tehran in the year months preceding the hostage crisis. |
How do people get "stuck" in a country ruled by a tyrannical, torturing hereditary despot installed by the American CIA, whose SAVAK agents were trained in interrogation techniques by agents of our govt? Seems to me, in such a situation, it would not have been difficult to leave at any time.
The Islamic Revolution happened because the US supported The Shah, and The Shah was a bad guy, you know, though likely quite charming in person. Jimmy Carter supported The Shah also, much as I hate to admit it, and when the final moments came Jimmy gave him sanctuary in the US so the tyrant could get treatment for his cancer and die comfortably in an American hospital.
Really, sometimes you don't make a lick of sense at all ...  |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Bobster wrote:
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| He's a private citizen, get it? He can say what he wants, when and where he wants, just like you. Only, when he does it, he shows his face to the world, lets his name and rep get attached to it, so that anonymous losers all over the internet can take cheap shots. Do you see any difference at all in this? Because I sure do. |
Yes, but he's hardly Joe Public. C'mon, the guy is a former president and he KNOWS his opinion, rightly or wrongly, carries more weight. He has an OBLIGATION, in my estimation, to keep that unavoidable fact in mind before he opens his peach pie-hole. And it's one thing to speak about domestic matters and quite another to talk of foreign policy, much less scurry around the globe talking to leaders without even the courtesy of checking with the current administration.
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| The Islamic Revolution happened because the US supported The Shah, and The Shah was a bad guy, you know, though likely quite charming in person. Jimmy Carter supported The Shah also, much as I hate to admit it, and when the final moments came Jimmy gave him sanctuary in the US so the tyrant could get treatment for his cancer and die comfortably in an American hospital. |
Sorry, but that dog don't hunt, as they say in Texas. You're putting the chicken before the egg. While I'm in no shape or form condoning the excesses of SAVAK, the fact of the matter is that most of the clampdown came as a result of political activities among the supporters of an Islamic state. The Shah was determined--too much so--to continue on the road to modernization, which most of the populace at the time supported, in case you didn't know.
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| Your racism is starting to show ... Jesse's talk is very like cadences of his mentor, M L King, and perfectly standard in the neighborhood he came from, though far removed from the young kids are talking nowadays. You show up in that part of town, YOU'RE the one speaking non-standard. |
You obviously haven't read many of my threads. I worked and taught in the black community for more than a decade and so I'm very familiar with his dialect. Calling me a racist is a convenient cheap shot which all liberals drag out of the closet when they can't mount an argument. Fact is that Jesse is an ignorant, no make that "ignint" man who believes his association with King entitles him to make the world his pulpit. Carter's ego is dwarfed by comparison. I met Jackson once in a principal's office and chatted with him for about 15 minutes while he was waiting for a call from the NYT about his views on apartheid. I even assisted his presidential campaign in my home state but regretted it after his anti-Semitic remarks. Jackson is an ambulance chaser. He spouts the old scare tactics of the uneducated civil rights leaders. I'd say comparing him to King is ludicrous. And by the way, step into any black church in the American South and you'll hear the same cadences of oratory. It only sounds eloquent to whites who've never spent time in a black Baptist church. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Bobster wrote:
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| He's a private citizen, get it? He can say what he wants, when and where he wants, just like you. Only, when he does it, he shows his face to the world, lets his name and rep get attached to it, so that anonymous losers all over the internet can take cheap shots. Do you see any difference at all in this? Because I sure do. |
Yes, but he's hardly Joe Public. C'mon, the guy is a former president and he KNOWS his opinion, rightly or wrongly, carries more weight. He has an OBLIGATION, in my estimation, to keep that unavoidable fact in mind before he opens his peach pie-hole. And it's one thing to speak about domestic matters and quite another to talk of foreign policy, much less scurry around the globe talking to leaders without even the courtesy of checking with the current administration. |
He's not a part of the current administration, and thank buddha for that. He''s not part of the current of the current administration's party. Guess what? Everyone he talks to know that. He MIGHT be part of the NEXT administration's party. Guess what? Everyone he talks to knows that, too.
He doesn't owe any courtesy to the current administration. Why should he? When has this adnministration shown any courtesy to anyone at all, unless they were backed up against the wall and forced to? Never in my memory.
He can say what he likes to whomever he chooses, and so can you.
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| The Shah was determined--too much so--to continue on the road to modernization, which most of the populace at the time supported, in case you didn't know. |
What I hear, part of his "modernization" was to instruct policemen to forcibly rip veils and chadhoors off the heads of women walking in public ... yahweh knows, any BETTER way to pave the road for an Islamic Republic than torture people and humilate women in public?
Your stories about your adventurous past and all the places and people you've seen, all very entertaining, and thanks for the show. Stick to the public facts and what we all know of history if you want to have a discussion, is what I'm thinking. I got stories I can tell also of people I've met here and there. BFD, as the kids used to say. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: JIMMY CARTER: OPENING CANS OF... |
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A slightly different take than stevie's...
JIMMY CARTER~~ DOING WHAT HE DOES BEST... OPENING CANS OF WORMS
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Jimmy Carter has done more for the Palestinian cause in the past year then he did while he was President of the United States from 1977-1981.
The publication of his book, 'Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid', initiated discussions and forums throughout the world on the question of the policies of apartheid in the state of Israel. Zionists throughout the world, the US in particular, became outraged with his candidness and honesty. Alan Dershowitz became obsessed with the man and went on speaking engagements trying to prove that Carter was indeed an antisemite for daring to speak the truth on such matters.
Such are the tactics of the Lobby and their supporters. They wear their blinders and see only what zionism wants them to see. It matters not to them what Israel might be doing wrong, but it is a mortal sin to speak out against such doings. Jimmy Carter dared to do just that....
Carter again reopened the proverbial 'can of worms' regarding Israel while speaking at Ireland's eighth annual Forum on human rights in Dublin on Tuesday. He blamed the policies of the United States for the crisis that the Palestinian people are in today. He referred to America's rejection of Hamas' election a 'criminal act'....
This should really get the 'elders of zion' on a new rampage against the man. The following article deals with Carter's statements... it's a good read.
Former US president Jimmy Carter has called the rejection by the West of Hamas's election victory in 2006 a criminal act.
In a speech before Ireland's eighth annual Forum on human rights Tuesday, the 83-year-old former President said the US and Israel, with European Union acquiescence, sought to subvert the outcome of the Palestinian elections by shunning Hamas and helping Abbas to keep the reins of political and military power.
"That action was criminal," said Carter during a news conference.
Abbas who observed the elections said they were quite fair and democratic.
Carter said Hamas won a fair and democratic mandate that should have entitled it to lead the Palestinian government, adding that the movement had proven itself to be far more organized in its political and military showdown with the Fatah movement of Palestinian Authority Chairman Muhammed Abbas.
Hamas fighters last week routed Fatah forces answerable to Muhammed Dahlan, the American-backed former Gaza strongman.
Dahlan, whose forces had been armed and financed by the United States, is rumored to have planned a coup in Gaza against the Hamas-led government.
Carter said the American-Israeli-European consensus to reopen direct aid to the new government in Ramallah, but to deny the same to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, represented an effort "to divide the Palestinian people into two peoples."
"The United States and Israel decided to punish all the people in Palestine and did everything they could to deter a compromise between Fatah and Hamas."
Carter described US policy toward Fatah as a failure.
"The US and others supplied the Fatah-controlled security forces in Gaza with vastly superior weaponry in hopes they would conquer Hamas in Gaza..but Hamas this month routed Fatah because of its superior skills and discipline."
Finally, Carter castigated western efforts to isolate the now Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, calling on the international community to treat both the West Bank and Gaza Strip equally.
"This effort to divide Palestinians into two peoples now is a step in the wrong direction. All efforts of the international community should be to reconcile the two, but there is no effort from the outside to bring the two together." |
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cerulean808
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing Jimmy Carter has done is expressed an opinion and told some truths that contradict the extreme pro Israeli colonisation project stance of US right wing zealots. Its only those zealots who are foaming at the mouth about Carter - like on this board Stevie, Kuros and co. Of course to them, drugged on right wing American propaganda, what Carter says must seem like a message from Mars.
Fortunately outside the borders of Mickey Mouse land, Carter is saying only what most of us have understood or at least suspected. Good on him for finally challenging the dominant pro Israeli propaganda in his homeland. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Whoa, "pusillanimous" - now, yer gonna send ME to the dictionary, lol ... okay, I've heard of the word, but I'd have to go look to see if it applies here, haha.
Hey, sorry, I called you pompous before, although I sort of DO think that using a word like "pusillanimous" on a message board just might qualify as ... hey, seriously, Kuros, you're one of the few on the other side I've always respected and judged a worthy adversary. Okay, I probably took a cheap shot, and I might be doing so now. But criticizing Carter on what YOU might think are dubious facets of personality also qualifies as cheap shot, sorry to say.
Shake hands?
It's not exactly true that every ex-president has involved himself in humanitarian work, by the way. If Nixon did, it's news to me. Not sure what Reagan was up to besides building his presidential library, same for LBJ. Maybe you know more than me about those guys, and maybe I'm wrong.
Jimmy Carter, pompous? I doubt the word "pusillanimous" has ever left his lips ... haha.
Smiles.
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Nixon would be the exception.
You don't have to worry about me, I understand what people post in the heat of their initial reaction. I'll admit I'm tough on Carter but he rubs me the wrong way. I'll say this, though, the man never tortured anyone.
We're not going to agree on every post so it's probably best that we shake hands and try to keep it above the belt. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
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Carter? He picked up a hammer and started building houses for people who didn't have any. : |
Nonsense. He picked up a hammer for photo ops. Do you expect us to believe that Carter spent 8 hours a day 5 days a week building houses?
He spends ONE WEEK PER YEAR helping to "build homes and raise awareness of the critical need for affordable housing." While raising awareness of such a issue is certainly commendable one has to question how much awareness is raised in a week. Not to mention how much work on the actual house gets done...
http://www.habitat.org/how/carter.aspx
Perhaps if he spent more time actually building houses and less time supporting terrorist organizations I'd have more admiration for him. So would probably many others on the 'right' |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Conservative wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
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Carter? He picked up a hammer and started building houses for people who didn't have any. : |
Nonsense. He picked up a hammer for photo ops. Do you expect us to believe that Carter spent 8 hours a day 5 days a week building houses?
He spends ONE WEEK PER YEAR helping to "build homes and raise awareness of the critical need for affordable housing." While raising awareness of such a issue is certainly commendable one has to question how much awareness is raised in a week. Not to mention how much work on the actual house gets done...
http://www.habitat.org/how/carter.aspx
Perhaps if he spent more time actually building houses and less time supporting terrorist organizations I'd have more admiration for him. So would probably many others on the 'right' |
And you spend how many? The man is not a construction worker. He runs a major international institute, he assists in monitoring elections all over the world... and you? You seem to have enough on your hands posting here.
Terrorists. Huh. One man's terrorist is another mans's oppressed people.
As a supporter of Dumbya (Yes, I know, you don't, right?), you are supporting terrorism, war crimes, unconstitutional and illegal acts...
Yeah, you're a gem. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| The_Conservative wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
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Carter? He picked up a hammer and started building houses for people who didn't have any. : |
Nonsense. He picked up a hammer for photo ops. Do you expect us to believe that Carter spent 8 hours a day 5 days a week building houses?
He spends ONE WEEK PER YEAR helping to "build homes and raise awareness of the critical need for affordable housing." While raising awareness of such a issue is certainly commendable one has to question how much awareness is raised in a week. Not to mention how much work on the actual house gets done...
http://www.habitat.org/how/carter.aspx
Perhaps if he spent more time actually building houses and less time supporting terrorist organizations I'd have more admiration for him. So would probably many others on the 'right' |
And you spend how many? The man is not a construction worker. He runs a major international institute, he assists in monitoring elections all over the world... and you? You seem to have enough on your hands posting here.
Terrorists. Huh. One man's terrorist is another mans's oppressed people.
As a supporter of Dumbya (Yes, I know, you don't, right?), you are supporting terrorism, war crimes, unconstitutional and illegal acts...
Yeah, you're a gem. |
I don't support Dumbya..never heard of the fellow. Sounds like a bad egg by your recounting of the facts. Not suprising that you would know such people though. 
Exactly. He's not a construction worker. But The Bobster was making it sounds like he spends much/most of his time building houses. Let's keep it in context.
As for posting here seems you have plenty of time as well. I provide a valuable service correcting the incorrect information you provide. No, no need to thank me, I've decided to donate my services free of charge...much like your hero Carter.
Yes they are terrorists. They are recognized as such by pretty much all democractic governments.
Why thank you sweetie. I wouldn't say I'm a gem though, just an ordinary working-class fellow who likes to post on Dave's. |
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mcgeezer
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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I think what Carter meant was this:
The U.S. mission of freedom and democracy in the middle-east (especially the Palestinian Territories) has failed.....
The U.S. wanted free and fair elections...But there plan backfired BIG TIME...
Now they are supporting the losing side, and by doing so, the American government has no credibility anymore. Who the he-ll is going to beleive anything they say again about middle-east policies??
Another example of American 'meddling in other people's problems' gone bad.... |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgeezer wrote: |
I think what Carter meant was this:
The U.S. mission of freedom and democracy in the middle-east (especially the Palestinian Territories) has failed.....
The U.S. wanted free and fair elections...But there plan backfired BIG TIME...
Now they are supporting the losing side, and by doing so, the American government has no credibility anymore. .. |
Except it's not only America. Canada and the E.U are also supporting the "losing side" Most Western democractic governments consider Hamas a terrorist organization and one with no legitimacy. However even so, they are willing to recognize Hamas were Hamas willing to drop it's demand for the destruction of Israel. And if memory serves me correctly, wasn't CANADA was first off the mark in refusing to recognize Hamas. |
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