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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: sigh |
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| Thanks for the PM. I'd better respond privately to this one. |
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BuHaoChi
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by BuHaoChi on Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| BuHaoChi wrote: |
This is not just about making life comfortable for a bunch of rich, well to do college grads who made poor life choices which thus rendered them unemployable in mainstream Western society (sorry�maybe that�s unfair and a bit harsh�) |
Well, I think there's something to it (except for the rich part). This seems like a case of Western, English-speaking foreigners paying undue attention to the concerns of Western, English-speaking foreigners. Even if we're not rich, we're still a relatively privileged group in Korea. We enjoy a lot of benefits just because of something we had no control over ... the ability to speak English as our first language.
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| The bigger issue at stake is the injustice and breakdown of law and order in Korean society. The Korean government says it wants to go full speed ahead into the 21st century and join the ranks of the globalized elite. Well guess what? That�s not going to happen if they can�t regulate and police their own domestic industries. And it�s certainly not going to happen if they continue to maintain racist attitudes towards, and project their own nationalistic insecurities on well-intentioned outsiders. Who�s going to want to invest in a country knowing they�re always going to face an unfair advantage, knowing their Korean counterparts are always going to have the edge when it comes justice and official treatment, and knowing that the Korean authorities take no interest in ensuring that their citizens follow their directives and rules? Koreans proclaim themselves to be members of the global community and good upstanding global citizens. Yet, how can they maintain that fa�ade, while at the same time continue to abuse, cheat, and scam foreigners? |
I agree with this, but why single out foreigners (let alone English teachers) as if they were the only victims? Koreans scam other Koreans too, and they definitely scam and exploit migrant workers from other parts of Asia.
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| In the long run, they are doing a lot more harm to themselves then they are to us. What�s going to happen when some abused-and- mistreated-by-his-Korean-employer farm boy from Alberta goes home and is asked by his friends and family what Korea is like? He�ll tell everyone what a crummy place this is. And those people will tell their friends and family what a crummy place this is, and those people will tell their friends and family, and so on. To quote John Donne: �No man is an island, entire unto himself�� |
This isn't the strongest argument in favour of treating English teachers fairly, IMO. Bosses should be forced to treat employees fairly regardless of whether they're Korean or foreign, and regardless of whether they work in the hagwon business or any other industry. It's a matter of basic justice ... but "justice for English teachers" isn't any more important than other social issues, and it seems to be getting a disproportionate amount of attention recently.
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| So really, this is an extremely important matter that deserves all the coverage it can get in the media. |
See above.
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| Meanwhile, the government sits on the sidelines, seemingly oblivious (or uncaring) to the plight of so many. The only way any change is going to happen is if the issue is brought to their attention, and shoved in their face |
Governments are oblivious to a lot of things. They should be pressed to change many things, not just their policies on foreign English teachers. The media need to address other, more pressing, issues too, not put all their resources into a crusade for a relatively privileged group that can (for the most part) fight for itself.
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Other unrelated musings:
Unfortunately, what has been happening here is a classic collective action problem. When confronted with the choice of whether to participate or stay home, the rational choice is to stay home and do nothing. Why? Because if those who participate do succeed, those who stayed at home can become free-riders and get the same level of benefit as those who toiled for the cause, minus the risk and the costs. Everybody is basically sitting around waiting for someone else to take charge and get things done, not wanting to actually do something themselves. |
I guess I'm in that category too. Many of us haven't made a commitment to live in Korea for the rest of our lives. As long as it's advantageous to stay here, we will. When it no longer is, we'll move on.
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| This is the same reason why so many people remain oppressed for so long and never rise up against their oppressors. No one wants to risk their livelihood (or their blood) for the uncertainty of the future. |
I think you're overdramatizing. That quote really doesn't seem applicable to the vast majority of foreign English teachers in Korea ... at least no more so than it is to any group of workers who aren't self-employed.
Furthermore, Herald Media owns a chain of hagwons and at least one English village. Their CEO fired some union leaders a few years ago when they publicly challenged one of his business decisions. How objective can their coverage be when they have a stake in any potential new legislation? |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think these action can change Korea.
However maybe it will make the Hawgwan owners think twice before acting underhanded. Maybe more ESL teachers will become aware of what their contracts actually say.
Maybe others in the Korean community at tlarge will see how we as a group ca nmake changes.
Maybe not.
At the very least at least I am made aware of the pitfalls of others which will help me to avoid the pitfalls ahead. |
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BuHaoChi
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by BuHaoChi on Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sumfunu
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: What is the DFA.....? |
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| Sorry to sound out of touch, but I am. I have not been following the board or any Korean newspapers for the psat month or so, so please forgive my ignorance> Is DFA an acronym for a foreigner teacher's association? |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, what has been happening here is a classic collective action problem. When confronted with the choice of whether to participate or stay home, the rational choice is to stay home and do nothing. Why? Because if those who participate do succeed, those who stayed at home can become free-riders and get the same level of benefit as those who toiled for the cause, minus the risk and the costs. Everybody is basically sitting around waiting for someone else to take charge and get things done, not wanting to actually do something themselves.
Furthermore, we are confronted with a benefit distribution problem. The benefit gained by us through reform are outweighed by the costs that will be incurred upon the hagwon should reform be enacted. They have every reason to fight against any changes, and we only have lukewarm reasons to fight for change. I believe Machiavelli had a good quote relating to this kind of situation, but I can�t remember it off the top of my head. This is the same reason why so many people remain oppressed for so long and never rise up against their oppressors. No one wants to risk their livelihood (or their blood) for the uncertainty of the future.
Hence, the reason why this list of actions is so barren and sad.
Finally, thanks to the few of you who did do things and who are continuing to do things. You are laying the foundations for a better Korea and for a better expat community. |
You took the words right out of my mouth.  |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to read his comments too. And I don't know what DFA stands for, either.  |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Bramble- maybe you make money from "being lucky and speaking English" but my job requires a degree and I earned one. What have you earned in your lifetime (besides hangovers and a beer belly)?  |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| wylies99 wrote: |
| Bramble- maybe you make money from "being lucky and speaking English" but my job requires a degree and I earned one. What have you earned in your lifetime (besides hangovers and a beer belly)? |
That's funny, I had a degree the last time I checked. Maybe I should check again just to be sure. |
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BuHaoChi
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by BuHaoChi on Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| wylies99 wrote: |
| Bramble- maybe you make money from "being lucky and speaking English" but my job requires a degree and I earned one. What have you earned in your lifetime (besides hangovers and a beer belly)? |
That's funny, I had a degree the last time I checked. Maybe I should check again just to be sure. |
"Education is that which remains when one has forgotten everything learned in school." (Al Einstein) |
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insam
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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a related issue is that many (most?) teachers supplement their incomes by working outside their contracts. consequently, to participate in a 'movement' could potentially compromise their interests by making them more visible than they might prefer (as would complaining about contract details etc). i believe things like the daejeon situation will simply peter out if ignored. many teachers make more money outside of their contracts than they do from their primary jobs. why would they be overly concerned about their contracts or working conditions etc? seeking justice and transparency etc only helps to potentially lighten their wallets in the short run. many people are more pragmatic than they are idealistic; therefore, they are less concerned about law and contracts and more concerned about the tangible aspects of quality of life. so, they may not be freeloading and hoping to receive future 'benefits'. they may be concerned about additional exposure or otherwise satisfied with the life they have in korea.
we have to distinguish between things that are worth fighting for (egregious examples of exploitation and/or suffering) and those things that are merely uncomfortable and potentially or marginally infringe upon rights. if people are being wrongfully imprisoned or asked to work 60 hours per week and not being paid at all, then yes we should organize to help those individuals. if they work 34 hours per week and don't get paid for four hours of overtime, then i think collective efforts would be a total waste of time. think general, think big; don't miss the forest for the trees. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| we have to distinguish between things that are worth fighting for (egregious examples of exploitation and/or suffering) and those things that are merely uncomfortable and potentially or marginally infringe upon rights. if people are being wrongfully imprisoned or asked to work 60 hours per week and not being paid at all, then yes we should organize to help those individuals. if they work 34 hours per week and don't get paid for four hours of overtime, then i think collective efforts would be a total waste of time. think general, think big; don't miss the forest for the trees. |
Yes, that's a really good point. That's the point I was trying to make with my earlier post. |
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Typhoon
Joined: 29 May 2007
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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All black people work illegally. (from the banner)
All Mexicans are unqualified to work XXXX job. (from the banner)
All homosexuals will touch your children in inappropriate ways. (from the banner)
All hagwon bosses are scum. (not from the banner, but another example)
All these statements are wrong (morally incorrect) and should not be allowed to be posted all over a city. What makes it any different when it says foreigners or another group? The answer is it doesn't and it is always wrong to put up posters around a city defaming any group of people in general. This is why most people were offended and were trying to organize against the DFA. The crap conditions at hagwons are just another issue in the big picture as are the crap curriculums and not paying taxes. Hope that sheds some light on the situation. |
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