Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Ilsanman]

I wonder if that will satisfy everyone on this board. Including people who demonize Guri Guy simply because he looks at history with a critical eye.

It seems everyone knows and admits that a lot of history is false, but when something bad is written about Japan, it is accepted as fact.

[The Bobster]

[Ilsanman]

Yes, and other historians have shown that the facts and numbers are skewed. Some of those historians happen to be Japanese.

[Guri Guy]

Actually, a lot of these things are poorly documented. That is the problem.
When one keeps an objective eye on history and leaves hysterical nationalism out of it (that includes Korea, China and Japan) you will see a very different story. Does this make Japan innocent? Not by a long shot.
However, don't damn them for things they didn't do. The premise that the Japanese are evil allows Korea and China to make up all sorts of stories and they are accepted as gospel truth by their respective populations and by naive Westerners. "It must be true because the Japanese are so evil" attitude.

Japan has been passive about it for a long time. They have apologized many times and paid an enormous amount of compensation. However, to Korea, an apology is never sincere enough. China says they must badger Japan for eternity. (See the quote in my other post).
As I quoted before, Japan is finally saying "put up or shut up". If there really is all this rock solid evidence, lay it on the line. Seems fair to me.

[Ilsanman]

[stevemcgarrett]

GG and Ilsanman:

The Japanese militarists were evil and the Emperor himself was not blameless. Many wanted him hanged but MacArthur keenly recognized how critical it was to rebuilding Japan not to do just that.

You guys are squabbling over numbers. Whether it was 50,000 or 200,000 doesn't change the enormity of the crime committed.

Rather than insisting on solid evidence, the ultra-nationalists in the Diet and Abe's own cabinet are ignoring what evidence has already been produced--and a considerable amount of it comes from Japanese historians.

As I stated earlier, it is not fair to lump together Korea and China's current litany of perceived grievances. And let's not forget that the Filipinos and Vietnamese have their share of grievances too.

If Japanese leaders are so interested in putting this chapter in their history to rest, why do they keep on making asinine public statements about it which are sure to stir up a hornet's nest? Neither of you has adequately addressed this very question.

[Ilsanman]

Steve, as you mentioned earlier in a post, your family (or wife's family?) had been victims of Japan in the past.

I think that makes you unqualified to argue about this topic, since you are using emotions and hatred, and not logic.

I am confident that even if substantial evidence on the side of Japan were ever produced, you would ignore it and attack Japan's credibility.

GUri Guy is a historian and had no personal stake in this topic, so I read his posts very carefully. Anyone emotional, I take it with a grain of salt.

[stevemcgarrett]

Well, Ilsanman, you can take it with a bag of salt if you wish but having an emotional stake in the process doesn't negate my concerns. Indeed, the very fact that I know firsthand what the Japanese militarist policy wrought at least makes me qualified to offer an insider's opinion about how many Chinese actually feel about this issue.

Regardless, all historians have bias and hence are swayed to varying degrees by their emotions and their positionality. You should have realized that by now.

I don't hate the Japanese as a people. I despise the militarists of the past and the ultranationalists of the present, as anyone with an ounce of humanitarianism ought, but that's the extent of it.

And, yes, I think with all of the mounting evidence of Japanese atrocities, the burden of proof has shifted to the Japanese to prove otherwise since they are paddling upstream. Sorry, but if you and GG can't see that point, then you are apologists for the Japanese government.

Simply put, it is inexcusable for a hundred Japanese politicians to call into serious question the Nanjing Massacre without a preponderence of evidence to the contrary.

History is NOT a court of law where the burden of proof is on those doing the accusing and where those who stand accused are exonerated if their is a shadow of a doubt as to their guilt. Nor is history relative as the postmodern clowns would have us believe, either.

[Ilsanman]

So now the burden is on the Japanese to prove their innocence? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Did the 'uber important' Chinese race state that they don't have to prove anything? Or our favourite victims the Koreans state that?

The fact is, neither side can conclusively prove their own case.

[Guri Guy]

Thank you for debating politely and intelligently stevemcgarrett. I realize historians often have their own agendas. That is why it is important to get somewhat neutral people to give their opinions and judge the evidence. I posted a link previously from an Australian historian that stresses the importance of this very thing.

One important fact to remember is that the Japanese were fighting a war with China at the time. (A war of aggression admittedly.)
In Nanjing, the Chinese forces were routed and many soldiers deserted, threw off their uniforms and blended into the civilian population. They then continued to resist using civilians as cover leaving the Japanese with a no-win situation. It is entirely possible that many of these "civilians" that were massacred were actually soldiers that deserted. So 50,000 makes a big difference from 300,000. Since there were in the order of 30,000 to 50,000 Chinese troops in the area. Killing POWs or soldiers disguised as civilians is admittedly a brutal act but the time period was a brutal time.

Nanjing was also largely burnt to the ground. Traditionally this has been blamed on the Japanese. Of course with no solid evidence. The only evidence being that "The Japanese are evil so they must have done it". A more likely culprit would be the Chinese that employed a scorched earth policy that probably killed untold millions of Chinese. The Japanese wouldn't have been stupid enough to burn it down since it would have been valuable to use in their war effort.

Furthermore, can you answer me a question? (And thank you again for posting intelligently and calmly stevemcgarrett. It is appreciated.) If 300,000 civilians were massacred surely they must have found hundreds of thousands of corpses. What are the details on that?

You are 100% correct on the need to separate Korean and Chinese grievences.

I feel however that Japan has done the right thing here. They have put the ball in China and Korea's court. Japan has basically said, "Show me what you got". A bold action that could most certainly backfire on the Japanese. If the Chinese and Koreans have real solid evidence, they can produce it now for the world to see, thereby shaming the Japanese and exposing them as hypocrites. However if it is revealed that much of this "evidence" is nationalistic hype used to demonize the Japanese and fool their own people then the opposite will happen. I will personally watch with great interest.

[stevemcgarrett]

GG and Ilsanman:

To some extent, I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall with you guys.

Your sporting analogy, i.e., stating that the ball is in China (and Korea's) court, just doesn't cut it for me.

And that gets at the crux of the problem. Japanese government officials are posturing.

But the Chinese find the very attempt to extract proof of precise numbers to be painful and insulting. And it is precisely in this regard that I most fault the Japanese leaders. They are being disingenuous rather than genuinely concerned in their probing.

As I said before, whether 100,00 or 300,000 were killed is NOT the main issue: even if it was 20,000 it remains a heinous crime against humanity. There was absolutely no military justification for what the Imperial Army did in Korea or Japan.

As another East Asian nation whose cultural norms are dictated by the need to give face, it is even more inexcusable that the Japanese leaders play this game. They are not doing it simply to avoid reparations, either, which is another overlooked flaw in your arguments.

Have you both read Iris Chang's book, The Rape of Nanking? If not, read it and peruse her documentation.

Ilsanman:

Your need for "conclusive proof" is most revealing. What difference would it make anyway? Want solid evidence? Go to Nanjing and visit the museum where you can look through the glass at hundreds of undisturbed skeletal remains of Chinese in the most grotesque positions. Step inside to see the photo exhibits or the newsreel. Read the memoirs of foreigners cut off from the Chinese they tried to rescue or even those of a Nazi who befriended the Chinese. And as you're walking the grounds, bear in mind that you are actually walking on a huge mass grave that lies 6 meters beneath. That might finally give you cause to pause.

Shinzo Abe's suggestion that many if not most of the comfort women were prostitutes is both reckless and damningly inaccurate. No surprise that he wants to exonerate his grandfather, who was a militarist. I have absolutely no respect for him after that remark, which even drew a gentle rebuke from Washington.

[cangel]

Put this BS to rest... There are people who will say anything and everything but that doesn't mean we have to give their ideas a second thought. I am so tired of this cr@p! Honestly, do you give a dam n what they have to say? The ramblings of idiots and you give them credence!

[Ilsanman]

Can you distingusih a Chinese and a Japanese skeleton? Can you distinguish a solider from a civilian?

I didn't think so.

If you want to talk about militarianism, look at USA and Iraq right now, Mr. Proud American.

[stevemcgarrett]

Ilsanman wrote:

[Guri Guy]