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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
| As to your whole diatribe about them wanting America to fail, many Americans want the same thing. They want a check on the president, they don't want any more misadventures like Iraq, and maybe most of all, they believe what they're country is doing is wrong. |
The Kool aid he drank was very delicious. He's still got the buzz from it. You'll ave to wait for him to sober up at some point before you can attempt being reasonable like this. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's important to note that the "peace"(read: anti-America) movement of today learned from a tactical error it had made during the Vietnam War. Namely, it no longer openly proclaims who they actually support. The 1960s movement, spearheaded by the SDS, openly supported the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese. That helped to alienate it from the "Silent Majority" and cost it the little sympathy that it may have been able to garner.
The "peaceniks" also realized that openly supporting the enemy had a tendency to invite themselves to a good crap kicking from hard hats!  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Two other well-known incidents include groups of Vietnam- and Watergate-era antiwar students raiding certain professors' offices in the middle of the night and then turning over papers that showed they advised ("collaborated with," in their worldview) govt agencies like the Pentagon. Another, bolder student group waited outside Langley and photographed hundreds of CIA-employee vehicles leaving for home one afternoon. Friends in the antiwar movement helped them "run" the license plates at DMV, and they "outed" these employees, too. |
What was Blum's role in this?
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| Finally, back to the man under the microscopr in this thread: you do know that Blum expressly sought an Arab-language translation of Killing Hope and that he self-markets it through a Saudi-Arabian firm, right? |
Golly. Selling a book in the nation of an Arabic speaking ally. So what?
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| And that the Cuban govt translated and publishes his Spanish-language version, disseminating it throughout Latin America and the Caribbean? This does not sound like a hostile propaganda operation to you? |
What's your charge exactly? He writes things you don't like and people you don't like read him? It seems to me your argument is based on a poisoning the well fallacy. "Hitler smoked Camels. Therefore they are bad."
Seems to me you should attack his arguments, instead of attacking who puts him on their bookshelf.
Do you have any solution? People will always be critical of their government, in ways you find odious and in ways that the enemy finds comforting.
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| Here, Mindmetoo: I guess with the internet, one really can reinvent at least parts of the wheel when needed. This is Blum's autobiographical sketch attached to an earlier edition of Killing Hope. |
Why was he never prosecuted for this? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| ...People will always be critical of their government, in ways you find odious and in ways that the enemy finds comforting. |
This is not the dynamic I illustrate here. This is not the problem I am objecting to. And I think you know that by now, Mindmetoo. Blum alone presents one far leftist, a self-described "socialist," who has actively taken steps to harm at least one American govt agency. Moreover, he collaborated with the Castro regime in disseminating antiAmerican propaganda in Latin America and the Caribbean as well -- lying to his readership, for example, where he claims, among many other blatant but plausible falsehoods (I never said it was poorly-fabricated propaganda) that we assassinated Salvador Allende.
He also took pains to translate and disseminate his works in Saudi Arabia, bin Laden's homeland. And OP presents evidence that bin Laden has indeed read and approves of, in fact, explicitly recommends, at least one of these works -- diatribes which helped shape his antiAmerican worldview prior to 9/11.
That is to say, far leftists like Blum contribute to our enemies' hatreds by exciting them with fables about the Great Satan's evildoings. This is as they intended. And they are unapologetic about this. Goal. Score. Whatever.
Wish I had the cite or the name of the professor who applauded 9/11 on 9/11, expressing his regret that they missed the Pentagon. Unfortunately the thousands of hits on the multiple professors who are driving and disseminating the 9/11 conspiracy theories bury it in any Google search...I am sure you can see where this leads.
Cannot connect the dots for you more explicitly than that, Mindmetoo.
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Why was he never prosecuted for this? |
Good question. Why was Ellsberg not prosecuted for what he did, for that matter? Sign of the times, I imagine. But there is more to it than that.
Again: how much of this do you think the actual Gestapo would have tolerated? How about another Western democracy for additional comparative perspective? How much of this do you think the British govt would tolerate?
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:26 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| This is not the dynamic I illustrate here. This is not the problem I am objecting to. And I think you know that by now, Mindmetoo. Blum alone presents one far leftist, a self-described "socialist," who has actively taken steps to harm at least one American govt agency. Moreover, he collaborated with the Castro regime in disseminating antiAmerican propaganda in Latin America and the Caribbean as well -- lying to his readership, for example, where he claims, among many other blatant but plausible falshoods (I never said it was poorly-fabriated propaganda) that we assassinated Salvador Allende. |
Wow. All very good reasons not to buy his books or trust his words on the matter. Thanks. The Loose Change people sure do also help the Arabs who believe America attacked itself. What can we do about people like this?
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| Again: how much of this do you think the actual Gestapo would have tolerated? How about another Western democracy for additional comparative perspective? How much of this do you think the British govt would tolerate? |
That's kind of my point right? America doesn't have a Gestapo. You want one? You want to have a British style government without a written constitution?
So your point is what exactly? He's a big jerk and evil jerks love him and these big jerks read him and go "yeah, he's right!"? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What can we do about people like this...? So your point is what exactly? |
These sound an awful lot like mocking questions. I will answer in good-faith, in any case.
We can be more conscious and aware about what is going on and who is advocating what, Mindmetoo. And we can be very clear about what, exactly, it is that various voices like Blum's advocate. That is why we not only encourage criticism, but some of us may also even venture to critique the critics. Makes for a more informed democratic citizenry.
Must say I cannot understand your hostility to this process. People make claims (Blum's "America is worse than Nazi Germany," for example). Why not hold people like Blum's feet to the fire, too? Why so protective of a guy like Blum, Mindmetoo? Would you grant writers like him immunity to discussion and criticism except to praise them? You never addressed that question and I would like an answer. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| We can be more conscious and aware about what is going on and who is advocating what, Mindmetoo. And we can be very clear about what, exactly, it is that various voices like Blum's advocate. That is why we not only encourage criticism, but some of us may also even venture to critique the critics. Makes for a more informed democratic citizenry. |
A fine idea. So let's attack his ideas, and not attack him simply because who reads him. That is my point of departure. "Hitler read Darwin and put his ideas in practise! Darwin's writings emboldened the Nazis!" Still doesn't change a wit about what Darwin argues for.
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| Blum's "America is worse than Nazi Germany," for example |
I would find a statement like that as over the top as your initial commentary.
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| Why so protective of a guy like Blum, Mindmetoo? |
What makes you think I'm protective of him? Simply because I'm trying to get you to support your opinion with reason? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| "Hitler read Darwin and put his ideas in practise! Darwin's writings emboldened the Nazis!" Still doesn't change a wit about what Darwin argues for. |
But what would Darwin likely have thought and said about Hitler's citing him as an authority for Nazi politics, Mindmetoo? Indeed, you raised this comparison, so please follow through: compare Darwin and Blum's motives. That is the point you refuse to see.
Incidentally, whoever said I was attacking Blum? He and his correligionists like expos�s. Very well. This thread is my own contribution to their own expos�-style writing -- just as offensive and prosecutorial as they themselves write. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What can we do about people like this...? So your point is what exactly? |
These sound an awful lot like mocking questions. |
How rich...
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| I will answer in good-faith, in any case. |
good-faith... lol... |
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Lie Bot
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Location: Somewhere with Seoul!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:50 am Post subject: |
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I skipped over some of this but Gopher's still right on the money. Leftists are traiters for the most part and they've got to think more about what they say. It's just not American to talk that way about us or at least not the America I know. I don't agree with Ann Coulter all the time but she had the right idea about this when she said "Liberals become indignant when you question their patriotism, but simultaneously work overtime to give terrorists a cushion for the next attack and laugh at dumb Americans who love their country and hate the enemy. " (she's hot too and what have you got liberal? Michael Moore hahahaha!!!)
People who hate American should just SHUT UP!!!!
p.s. hey liberal if you don't like it why don't you go live in Iran? Let's see your freedom of speech under the SHAH!! |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What can we do about people like this...? So your point is what exactly? |
These sound an awful lot like mocking questions. |
How rich...
| Quote: |
| I will answer in good-faith, in any case. |
good-faith... lol... |
Keep trying...
One of these days, Gopher might acknowledge your existence. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Lie Bot wrote: |
p.s. hey liberal if you don't like it why don't you go live in Iran? Let's see your freedom of speech under the SHAH!! |
Do liberals have time machines? |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Lie Bot wrote: |
I skipped over some of this but Gopher's still right on the money. Leftists are traiters for the most part and they've got to think more about what they say. It's just not American to talk that way about us or at least not the America I know. I don't agree with Ann Coulter all the time but she had the right idea about this when she said "Liberals become indignant when you question their patriotism, but simultaneously work overtime to give terrorists a cushion for the next attack and laugh at dumb Americans who love their country and hate the enemy. " (she's hot too and what have you got liberal? Michael Moore hahahaha!!!)
People who hate American should just SHUT UP!!!!
p.s. hey liberal if you don't like it why don't you go live in Iran? Let's see your freedom of speech under the SHAH!! |
Ridiculous and simple-minded.
People have the right to say whatever they want. The difference is that when someone states over and over agian that they want the United States to fail, like many here do, they contribute to the enemies of the United States.
It's like this: Would you rather see peace in Iraq or the United States fail?
Some people, like many of the people that throw out the names of the neo-hippie/quasi-socialist authors listed before as well as the authors themselves, just want to see the United States go down in flames.
Do they have the right to say what they want? Yes. Can they complain when people are dying in Iraq? No.
This is what they want. They want people to die in foreign lands. They want as many as possible to die. Why? So that they can sit back and say, "Look! I told you so! See all those dead people? See? I told you!"
There are some people who live their entire lives without being happy and complaining all the time. They complain about the things that they don't have, and they blame the people that do have those things for everything that is wrong in their lives. That is what so many liberals do. They complain at the tops of their lungs, but offer no solutions. They blame, and blame, and blame some more.
And, who do they blame? Do they blame Osama for 9/11? Nope. They blame the people that have the things that they don't. Do they blame the poor people for getting stuck in New Orleans? Nope, they blame the people that have things they don't have. Do they blame Saddam Hussein for invading Kuwait, leaving the stand-off waiting for W.? Nope, they don't. Do they blame the Japanese for attacking Pearl Harbor, which resulted in the atomic bombs being dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Nope. Do they blame the Soviets, Chinese, or North Koreans for the Korean War? Nope.
This isn't anything new, though. There have always existed people that were pissed off that they didn't have everything that they wanted or didn't have the motivation to get it. They call themselves names like revloutionary, freedom-fighter, hippie, protester, non-conformist, and liberal. |
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Lie Bot
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Location: Somewhere with Seoul!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Lie Bot wrote: |
p.s. hey liberal if you don't like it why don't you go live in Iran? Let's see your freedom of speech under the SHAH!! |
Do liberals have time machines? |
OKay i get your point but so what? We let them say all kinds of stuff that hurts America and for what? It just encourages the terrorists and makes us look like p.us.ssies. I respect the First Amendment and all, but when most Americans have so much information that makes them against the troops in iraq and against war with Iran then you know something has gone wrong and we have to do something. America is a good country but why don't people think that? And you know, maybe sometimes the Ayatollah has got some right ideas about it. I mean, not for killing these people or anyting, but i think we could do more to keep them quieter. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| "Hitler read Darwin and put his ideas in practise! Darwin's writings emboldened the Nazis!" Still doesn't change a wit about what Darwin argues for. |
But what would Darwin likely have thought and said about Hitler's citing him as an authority for Nazi politics, Mindmetoo? Indeed, you raised this comparison, so please follow through: compare Darwin and Blum's motives. That is the point you refuse to see.
Incidentally, whoever said I was attacking Blum? He and his correligionists like expos�s. Very well. This thread is my own contribution to their own expos�-style writing -- just as offensive and prosecutorial as they themselves write. |
Well, if Blum likes the idea of the Taliban and Osama reading him (for real vs him just being factitious because it drives book sales) then I would say he sure is a jerk and I wouldn't want to attend any parties he goes to. |
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