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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:31 am Post subject: |
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In response to "Alyallen's" post quoting my reference to "black humor", I don't think I expressed myself very clearly on that point (and I'm not sure how it was understood...)
I was trying to say that some people can expertly use even apparently sexist and racist material in a way that's satirical - or even just flat-out funny due to being so outrageous. Sometimes the aim is to expose hypocrisy ...
Satire - even if "politically incorrect" - has at least some artistic and entertainment value if it's creative or at least done well.
The "Share the Hate..." thread is one of many that tries to focus on negative aspects of Korean culture, which I think is overdone. Not being black myself, I'm not that sensitive to - and wasn't particularly offended by - any racist images it contained...
(At least the Corea "map of the future" was amusing...) |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Regarding "Share the Hate," I seem to have missed that thread earlier. I guess I have mixed feelings about whether the mods would have been justified in pulling it entirely or if another solution might have been better. On the one hand, the discussion may have made people think about the number of racist images out there, and I think that was the general intent ... OTOH, I can see Alyallen's point. Maybe it would have been appropriate for the OP to put a warning in the subject line, letting people know that the content was offensive? Maybe the mods should also have let everyone know they were keeping a close eye on the thread, and warned people to behave accordingly?
Regarding the anti-Korean posts, I agree that they've been a big problem at Dave's for a long time. Sometimes I'll just skip over a thread that promises to be a big anti-Korea b*tchfest ... but then again, sometimes people make Korea-related posts with the intention of being funny/silly rather than offensive. Many of JongnoGuru's posts fit into this category, and I'd hate to see him censored, but another writer expressing very similar ideas might come across in a completely different and much more negative light.
I suppose this all speaks to the need for mods to be more accessible, more hands-on, and more careful about the decisions they make. |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
In response to "Alyallen's" post quoting my reference to "black humor", I don't think I expressed myself very clearly on that point (and I'm not sure how it was understood...)
I was trying to say that some people can expertly use even apparently sexist and racist material in a way that's satirical - or even just flat-out funny due to being so outrageous. Sometimes the aim is to expose hypocrisy ...
Satire - even if "politically incorrect" - has at least some artistic and entertainment value if it's creative or at least done well.
The "Share the Hate..." thread is one of many that tries to focus on negative aspects of Korean culture, which I think is overdone. Not being black myself, I'm not that sensitive to - and wasn't particularly offended by - any racist images it contained...
(At least the Corea "map of the future" was amusing...) |
Sigh....I was not referring to the thread as being "Black" humor as in making fun of Black people but "Black" as in a piss poor attempt at being funny or satirical if only because nearly all the pictures had nothing to do with Korea and much to do about the various ways Blacks are made fun of. My problem was that most of the pictures weren't from Korea, so what was the point in showing all that other crap? Why is it in the general discussion thread?
Whatever...no matter what I say on the subject, it's may likely be viewed as me being upset because I'm Black (even though I made it clear that I wasn't). I just think that in the spirit of equality and just plain averages (I mean how many posters on Dave are Black anyway?), why aren't there a bunch of pics of big nose Whites or slutty western women or some other un-PC visual stimuli? I suppose I find it hypocritical to condemn Koreans for being a bunch of racists but then posting a bunch of crap from all over the world under the guise of "This is Korean racist crap..."
Last edited by Alyallen on Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
Regarding "Share the Hate," I seem to have missed that thread earlier. I guess I have mixed feelings about whether the mods would have been justified in pulling it entirely or if another solution might have been better. On the one hand, the discussion may have made people think about the number of racist images out there, and I think that was the general intent ... OTOH, I can see Alyallen's point. Maybe it would have been appropriate for the OP to put a warning in the subject line, letting people know that the content was offensive? Maybe the mods should also have let everyone know they were keeping a close eye on the thread, and warned people to behave accordingly?
Regarding the anti-Korean posts, I agree that they've been a big problem at Dave's for a long time. Sometimes I'll just skip over a thread that promises to be a big anti-Korea b*tchfest ... but then again, sometimes people make Korea-related posts with the intention of being funny/silly rather than offensive. Many of JongnoGuru's posts fit into this category, and I'd hate to see him censored, but another writer expressing very similar ideas might come across in a completely different and much more negative light.
I suppose this all speaks to the need for mods to be more accessible, more hands-on, and more careful about the decisions they make. |
Nope...I didn't care if it was offensive...the title said it all. I just think that it's crap that the OP states:
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| I'm collecting pics from Korea that are racist or are negative stereotypes of foreigners. I'll start with these: |
But 4 posts later, there's some pic from Finland.
The next one...about AUSTRALIAN cheese called coon
Then the next a pic that's not from Korea
And then one that was Korean....with a pic of Eddie Murphy.
And so on and so forth.
At least be up front and admit that you (the general yous out there) want to post pics of Blacks or whatever looking stupid, be my guest, but I don't see what it has to do with living in South Korea...do you? |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Alyallen: Well, the OP couldn't really control how the thread would develop after his initial post criticizing Korea for its racism. I think some replies were meant to counter that criticism by showing that Korea doesn't deserve to be singled out in that area ... but then as more people joined in, things deteriorated. A mod could have called the participants on it.
Bobster: I'm not taking any more bait; I've already stated my position on the Freaka/Jinju controversy and that should be the end of it. Yes, maybe her comment was a little vulgar ... but you know how it is when everyone else is driving 600-700 times the speed limit ... |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| Alyallen: Well, the OP couldn't really control how the thread would develop after his initial post criticizing Korea for its racism. I think some replies were meant to counter that criticism by showing that Korea doesn't deserve to be singled out in that area ... but then as more people joined in, things deteriorated. A mod could have called the participants on it. |
Which is my point actually. I looked at the thread. I don't see what any of those pictures had to do with racism in Korea. So why was the thread still around but threads that are innocuous are culled? I'm just pointing out the fact that things are inconsistent, so there's really no point in hoping the mods will do much of anything about anything unless it bothers or offends a lot of people. So essentially, if I was pissed off about that thread it would change nothing...
I honestly think that if the pics were of stereotypical skanky women, the reaction would be different. But who knows for sure?
My comments were just to point out the "realness" of this board in its idiosyncrasies, hypocrisies, and general inconsistencies. As long as there isn't a hue and cry for pitchforks, certain actions and behaviors will continue to happen. Not much is going to change that and that reflects real life, I think... |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| Alyallen: Well, the OP couldn't really control how the thread would develop after his initial post criticizing Korea for its racism. I think some replies were meant to counter that criticism by showing that Korea doesn't deserve to be singled out in that area ... but then as more people joined in, things deteriorated. A mod could have called the participants on it. |
Which is my point actually. I looked at the thread. I don't see what any of those pictures had to do with racism in Korea. So why was the thread still around but threads that are innocuous are culled? I'm just pointing out the fact that things are inconsistent, so there's really no point in hoping the mods will do much of anything about anything unless it bothers or offends a lot of people. So essentially, if I was pissed off about that thread it would change nothing...
I honestly think that if the pics were of stereotypical skanky women, the reaction would be different. But who knows for sure?
My comments were just to point out the "realness" of this board in its idiosyncrasies, hypocrisies, and general inconsistencies. As long as there isn't a hue and cry for pitchforks, certain actions and behaviors will continue to happen. Not much is going to change that and that reflects real life, I think... |
Sometimes they're responsive to people's concerns, sometimes they're not, and most of the time they choose not to explain their decisions. A while back, in a discussion about the way such decisions are made, someone commented, "Justice needs to be done, and justice needs to be seen to be done."
I agree. I'd like to see more public dialogue between the mods and everyone else so we can better understand where they're coming from. Maybe an ongoing "Dear Mods" thread would be a good thing for the boards to have. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Which leads to the question for us at Dave�s: How many potentially great contributors and their threads and posts are we missing out on, because we don�t have a �clean� or inclusive or safe enough culture for posters identifying as female?
I think we should make conscious decisions as to what kind of a culture we want to live in, online or in the smelly world, and how we want to contribute to the development of that culture. |
It's a fair comment. However, I don't think it's too much to ask of women that they be strong enough to hear things that are ugly or distasteful, and confront those things with the good sense and articulation most of us are capable of.
Bramble :
| Quote: |
| Bobster: I'm not taking any more bait; I've already stated my position on the Freaka/Jinju controversy and that should be the end of it. Yes, maybe her comment was a little vulgar ... |
Bramble, you haven't justified why you didn't hit the red button on this particular "vulgar" behavior. It's far worse than vulgar, and we both know it. I'd like to respect you, but for you to belittle this in this makes it very difficult ...
I submit to you that it is because you saw the target as one that needed attacking, so you were not unhappy to see pain go in that direction, and you didn't give a thought to the notion that a living, breathing human woman was the tool in that attack.
I am not a friend of jinju, by the way. We disagree on most things political and many things otherwise. On another message board recently, though, I had the pleasure of seeing my wife insulted online because someone didn't like something I had said. THAT's my only personal stake in this. It's ugly stuff, and I cannot express enough how disappointed I am that so many of you here seem to find it acceptable.
"Vulgar"? What, like belching during dinner? Get your head straight, and figure stuff out. There is simply NO way in the world to defend the actions of a person attacking a family member. NONE.
Your "position," and your response in general has been, to be polite, lame. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Which leads to the question for us at Dave�s: How many potentially great contributors and their threads and posts are we missing out on, because we don�t have a �clean� or inclusive or safe enough culture for posters identifying as female?
I think we should make conscious decisions as to what kind of a culture we want to live in, online or in the smelly world, and how we want to contribute to the development of that culture. |
It's a fair comment. However, I don't think it's too much to ask of women that they be strong enough to hear things that are ugly or distasteful, and confront those things with the good sense and articulation most of us are capable of.
Bramble :
| Quote: |
| Bobster: I'm not taking any more bait; I've already stated my position on the Freaka/Jinju controversy and that should be the end of it. Yes, maybe her comment was a little vulgar ... |
Bramble, you haven't justified why you didn't hit the red button on this particular "vulgar" behavior. It's far worse than vulgar, and we both know it. I'd like to respect you, but for you to belittle this in this makes it very difficult ...
I submit to you that it is because you saw the target as one that needed attacking, so you were not unhappy to see pain go in that direction, and you didn't give a thought to the notion that a living, breathing human woman was the tool in that attack.
I am not a friend of jinju, by the way. We disagree on most things political and many things otherwise. On another message board recently, though, I had the pleasure of seeing my wife insulted online because someone didn't like something I had said. THAT's my only personal stake in this. It's ugly stuff, and I cannot express enough how disappointed I am that so many of you here seem to find it acceptable.
"Vulgar"? What, like belching during dinner? Get your head straight, and figure stuff out. There is simply NO way in the world to defend the actions of a person attacking a family member. NONE.
Your "position," and your response in general has been, to be polite, lame. |
I think many female posters have stood up for themselves and been articulate but only to have people reply by taking the low road. The problem with some moron taking the low road is that you end up on the same path as them and I for one want no part of it.
I read that infernal thread and I will simply say that it takes 2 to tango and I can't say I feel pity for either of them. What I read didn't look like a personal insult to me but then again the thread is long gone and the controversy should have went along with it. Unless someone has the EXACT wording of the infamous insult/put down, this will just spin round and round in a perpetual motion of stubborness. Disagree with me, which is your right, notice that even JINJU seems to have moved on already. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Thread title amended by OP to reflect that the mods decided to return the original one with this title back into our hot little hands ...
Last edited by The Bobster on Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
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This is also lame. If you are not capable of addressing what is said, then why stop around at all? Actually, I think you ARE capable. You are just lazy. (Using an emoticon instead of a sentence : "The topic is important enough to comment on, but I don't think I'm up to task of a coherent reply. Anyway, there might be something halfway good on TV.")
Tell me I'm wrong. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
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This is also lame. If you are not capable of addressing what is said, then why stop around at all? Actually, I think you ARE capable. You are just lazy. (Using an emoticon instead of a sentence : "The topic is important enough to comment on, but I don't think I'm up to task of a coherent reply. Anyway, there might be something halfway good on TV.")
Tell me I'm wrong. |
I think I made it clear that I'm sick of your baiting. Cease and desist. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
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This is also lame. If you are not capable of addressing what is said, then why stop around at all? Actually, I think you ARE capable. You are just lazy. (Using an emoticon instead of a sentence : "The topic is important enough to comment on, but I don't think I'm up to task of a coherent reply. Anyway, there might be something halfway good on TV.")
Tell me I'm wrong. |
I think I made it clear that I'm sick of your baiting. Cease and desist. |
You've used the word "baiting" twice, now. I've sent you a pm to tell you personally I have no animosity towards you. Yet the term you are using is clearly intended to insult me, and belittle my attempts at meaningful dialogue, and to deride the opinions I express without examining them and responding in any meaningful way.
Did I insult you? I'm sorry, if that happened. Do you have anything to say on the topic? Apparently not. Looks like you'd rather talk about me.
Oh, by the way, when you read where someone compared a guy's wife to an inflatable sex toy, did you hit the red button and tell the mods how angry you were about that? Oh, I just remembered. You probably weren't angry at all, were you? |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Just stop stalking me, and don't send me any more PMs. |
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